From robert.spykerman at gmail.com  Fri Dec  4 12:57:48 2009
From: robert.spykerman at gmail.com (Robert Spykerman)
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 03:57:48 +0000
Subject: [ydl-gen] gcc 4.4
Message-ID: <1d5b8ec30912031957m652b79d1y359f2803cc55b71a@mail.gmail.com>

Dear All

I just installed ydl 6.2 onto my ps3 and am finding it fun.

I would really like to know if anyone has any guidance on how to build
a bi-arch gcc - specifically like the way the stock 6.2 gcc was set
up?

Can anyone here from ydl show me some steps or point me in the right
direction on how they did it?

Just kind of keen to see what the -mcell flag does, is it better in
terms of instruction scheduling at compile time etc..

Biarch - because I'd really like to rebuild my kernel with gcc 4.42.

Thanks in advance.

-- 
chown -R us ./base

From dcenteno at ydl.net  Sat Dec  5 00:17:37 2009
From: dcenteno at ydl.net (Derick Centeno)
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 10:17:37 -0500
Subject: [ydl-gen] gcc 4.4
In-Reply-To: <1d5b8ec30912031957m652b79d1y359f2803cc55b71a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1d5b8ec30912031957m652b79d1y359f2803cc55b71a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1d6715a20912040717r3d52f018nc5d73dc8bb758954@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Robert!

Welcome to the YDL community.

Before you invest your time in such an effort it may be to your advantage to
review at least two discussion threads which took place on the YDL Board
here:

This discussion approaches the level of technical information and references
you may need before you implement or begin your effort:

http://www.yellowdog-board.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=5489

The next discussion explores Sony's choice to cancel the OtherOS option in
detail (with references):

http://www.yellowdog-board.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=6652

If you decide to move ahead with your plan, consider becoming a member of
the YDL Board as the people who can address some of the technical challenges
you will face are there.

Sincerely, aguilarojo

On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 10:57 PM, Robert Spykerman <
robert.spykerman at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear All
>
> I just installed ydl 6.2 onto my ps3 and am finding it fun.
>
> I would really like to know if anyone has any guidance on how to build
> a bi-arch gcc - specifically like the way the stock 6.2 gcc was set
> up?
>
> Can anyone here from ydl show me some steps or point me in the right
> direction on how they did it?
>
> Just kind of keen to see what the -mcell flag does, is it better in
> terms of instruction scheduling at compile time etc..
>
> Biarch - because I'd really like to rebuild my kernel with gcc 4.42.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> --
> chown -R us ./base
> _______________________________________________
> yellowdog-general mailing list - yellowdog-general at lists.fixstars.com
> Unsuscribe info:
> http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general
> HINT: to Google archives, try  '&lt;keywords> site:us.fixstars.com'
>



-- 
=========
Refranes/Popular sayings:

The Taino say:
No hay mal que por bien no venga.
There is no evil out of which good cannot blossom.
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From robert.spykerman at gmail.com  Sat Dec  5 10:35:20 2009
From: robert.spykerman at gmail.com (Robert Spykerman)
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 01:35:20 +0000
Subject: [ydl-gen] gcc 4.4
In-Reply-To: <1d6715a20912040717r3d52f018nc5d73dc8bb758954@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1d5b8ec30912031957m652b79d1y359f2803cc55b71a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1d6715a20912040717r3d52f018nc5d73dc8bb758954@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1d5b8ec30912041735v68bb36d4s150004b4147a57db@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/4/09, Derick Centeno <dcenteno at ydl.net> wrote:

> Hi Robert!
>
> Welcome to the YDL community.

Ta very much.

> Before you invest your time in such an effort it may be to your advantage to
> review at least two discussion threads which took place on the YDL Board
> here:
>
> This discussion approaches the level of technical information and references
> you may need before you implement or begin your effort:
>
> http://www.yellowdog-board.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=5489
>
> The next discussion explores Sony's choice to cancel the OtherOS option in
> detail (with references):
>
> http://www.yellowdog-board.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=6652

Eh, did I miss something important in those links?

I was actually looking for some way to build a biarch gcc 4.4.2 ie
generate both 32 or 64 bit code. 32bit code for most userland apps and
64 bits of course to recompile the kernel and other muckings-around.

It must be possible as the YDL guys have it done with the gcc 4.1.2
supplied on YDL 6.2. Now I am guessing it is probably a bit more
difficult than just a normal gcc build but how it's done for a PPC I'm
not sure, as I am not sure:
1) if just the right flags need setting
2) or if it's more involved, and there's a certain sequence to build
it that the makefile just doesn't know.

So, while I am not sure exactly what you are directing me to or
alluding to with those links.

All I want to do is compile a bi-arch gcc...

If you are alluding to the futiliy of it, well, heck, it's only for
fun, it's not like I have to or anything. Just plain ol' fun.

> If you decide to move ahead with your plan, consider becoming a member of
> the YDL Board...

you mean yellowdog-board? yep, just visited it.

Waiting to see if anyone can help. Might look to see if I can ask in
something more gcc specific, like on usenet

... but seeing as YDL produced a distro with a bi-arch gcc to begin
with, I thought I would try here first.


> Sincerely, aguilarojo

Rob Spykerman

From robert.spykerman at gmail.com  Tue Dec  8 16:35:17 2009
From: robert.spykerman at gmail.com (Robert Spykerman)
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 18:35:17 +1100
Subject: [ydl-gen] gcc 4.4
In-Reply-To: <1d6715a20912040717r3d52f018nc5d73dc8bb758954@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1d5b8ec30912031957m652b79d1y359f2803cc55b71a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1d6715a20912040717r3d52f018nc5d73dc8bb758954@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1d5b8ec30912072335v554ad8a9y602221ee20c33309@mail.gmail.com>

Ok, managed to get it built. It was actually somewhat easier than I thought.

I just had to add in the --enable-multilib flag and just the other
flags I wanted from the original stock gcc that came with YDL 6.2.
That flag,believe it or not, was apparently the only obstacle, and it
was right in front of my eyes all this time... /sigh. I need new
glasses.

So far it seems to work, I have rebuilt kernel 2.6.32 on it, and so
far /fingers-crossed it works with the old default userland.

I think my current boot-up which consists of the 4.4.2 built 2.6.32
kernel and drivers from a heavilly edited 2.6.29 ydl derived .config
appears more stable, than the default 2.6.29-ydl61.4, with my PS3
which is an old Aussie 40GB one with 3.10 firmware.

But that may be because I threw out some drivers that I didn't need as
well I guess... specifically ATA, RAID, bluetooth, WIFI...

On the plain vanilla 6.2 My box seemed to crash 10% of the time @
sysinit when loading the raid drivers which is just as well I don't
have a raid, heh.

Robert Spykerman
-- 
chown -R us ./base

From pbfwdlist at gmail.com  Tue Dec  8 22:08:34 2009
From: pbfwdlist at gmail.com (Patrice B)
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 14:08:34 +0100
Subject: [ydl-gen] String instructions emulation on PPC970MP
Message-ID: <e749672d0912080508s37059deagd722c2b98d936cd7@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

  I'm using a Power Station as a build machine to generate code for
amcc440 cpu using gcc 4.4 with option -mcpu=440fp. Since this release
of gcc, I notice that code is generated with string instructions which
are not supported by Power Station cpu, and then, it makes build
failed if a newly built binary needs to be run for a next build step.
Is there a way to emulate those instructions on a Power Station (which
currently runs YDL 6.0)

  Best regards

        Patrice

From sotrod at hotmail.com  Tue Dec  8 22:16:46 2009
From: sotrod at hotmail.com (sotrod at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 05:16:46 -0800
Subject: [ydl-gen] =?iso-8859-7?b?wfDc7fTn8+cg5Onh6u/w/u0=?=
In-Reply-To: <mailman.24.1260278183.5397.yellowdog-general@lists.fixstars.com>
Message-ID: <SNT0-MC2-F4033A0739DCF81B6C0ABE1DE8F0@phx.gbl>

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From robert.spykerman at gmail.com  Wed Dec  9 05:05:09 2009
From: robert.spykerman at gmail.com (Robert Spykerman)
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 07:05:09 +1100
Subject: [ydl-gen] String instructions emulation on PPC970MP
In-Reply-To: <e749672d0912080508s37059deagd722c2b98d936cd7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e749672d0912080508s37059deagd722c2b98d936cd7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1d5b8ec30912081205m20a686age1f9be448dd81471@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 12:08 AM, Patrice B <pbfwdlist at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> ?I'm using a Power Station as a build machine to generate code for
> amcc440 cpu using gcc 4.4 with option -mcpu=440fp. Since this release
> of gcc, I notice that code is generated with string instructions which
> are not supported by Power Station cpu, and then, it makes build
> failed if a newly built binary needs to be run for a next build step.
> Is there a way to emulate those instructions on a Power Station (which
> currently runs YDL 6.0)

Hmm... It looks like you're probably attempting to build a 440 gcc
native binary to run on your 970s. I think from what you're
describing, when it bootstraps it dies.

I think you may well have to unfortunately build a cross compiler. I
have not actually done this in reality but I believe there are a few
guides out there. I think it's a matter of building with the right
--target flag, but it's possibly more complicated.

Found this which looks promising (I've been thinking of shifting my
ps3 compilation to my x86 boxen - I'll tell you how that goes)

http://vmlinux.org/crash/mirror/www.objsw.com/CrossGCC/FAQ-4.html

Hope this helps pointing you in the right dir.

> ?Best regards
>
> ? ? ? ?Patrice
> _______________________________________________
> yellowdog-general mailing list - yellowdog-general at lists.fixstars.com
> Unsuscribe info: http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general
> HINT: to Google archives, try ?'&lt;keywords> site:us.fixstars.com'

Robert Spykerman

-- 
chown -R us ./base

From robert.spykerman at gmail.com  Wed Dec  9 05:53:55 2009
From: robert.spykerman at gmail.com (Robert Spykerman)
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 07:53:55 +1100
Subject: [ydl-gen] String instructions emulation on PPC970MP
In-Reply-To: <e749672d0912080508s37059deagd722c2b98d936cd7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e749672d0912080508s37059deagd722c2b98d936cd7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1d5b8ec30912081253o7373d6d3r4cf9b2a451432b10@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 12:08 AM, Patrice B <pbfwdlist at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> ?I'm using a Power Station as a build machine to generate code for
> amcc440 cpu using gcc 4.4 with option -mcpu=440fp. Since this release
> of gcc, I notice that code is generated with string instructions which
> are not supported by Power Station cpu, and then, it makes build
> failed if a newly built binary needs to be run for a next build step.
> Is there a way to emulate those instructions on a Power Station (which
> currently runs YDL 6.0).

Hmm.. one other solution I thought of is to try this on your 970 gcc.

-mcpu=440fp         and     -mno-dlmzb

I had to do a bit of googling, these are the instructions you mean?
Because I think the 'regular string' multiload instructions (ie load
contiguous registers from a contiguous block of mem) are common to
most powerpcs now, even the 440 I believe. The 970/cell certainly has
it.

The other thing is to try is possibly

-mcpu=common     and     -mtune=440fp

That way /maybe/ you get just the 'common' set of instructions used
and the scheduling tuned for a 440fp.

Worth a try I reckon.

But of course, other important issues could be the call convention /
ABI / endedness etc. That I do not know about on your target. Maybe a
cross compiler is the better solution.

> ?Best regards
>
> ? ? ? ?Patrice

Robert Spykerman

-- 
chown -R us ./base

From dcenteno at ydl.net  Wed Dec  9 06:49:54 2009
From: dcenteno at ydl.net (Derick Centeno)
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 16:49:54 -0500
Subject: [ydl-gen] String instructions emulation on PPC970MP
In-Reply-To: <e749672d0912080508s37059deagd722c2b98d936cd7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e749672d0912080508s37059deagd722c2b98d936cd7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1d6715a20912081349he2c8ea5k9c46ed42429fa1f8@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Patrice:

I did a little digging and came across the following explanation from IBM
which explains that the CPU you are coding for (amcc440) requires a specific
Linux capable of the following:

In versions 2.6.26 and earlier of the Linux kernel, the code did not
properly clear reserved bits 11 - 15 in word two of a Translation Lookaside
Buffer (TLB) entry. These bits need to be set to zero as documented in the
respective user?s manuals to avoid a degradation in performance.
A change was included in Linux kernel version 2.6.27 which will clear
reserved bits 11 - 15 bits in the finish_tlb_load function. With these bits
automatically cleared, inadvertent performance degradation will be avoided.
Users of the PPC440x6 and all 464 processor cores should use Linux kernel
version 2.6.27 or later.

You can read the document for yourself here:

https://www-01.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/6F95C69A2ED9AE73002575AF005B6E4E

YDL 6.2 does use kernel 2.6.27 (see here:
http://www.fixstars.com/en/products/ydl/installed.html) however make sure
that the settings recommended by IBM are in effect for the amcc440.
However, that would mean that you are directly coding for that cpu not the
native 970MP which comprises the PowerStation which would explain the
problems you are reporting.

IBM does have a document explaining coding for the 970MP (which are the
native cpus within the PowerStation) and the Linux parameters they
recommend.  That document is here:

https://www-01.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/A0C294269DB8D1EC87256FF9004FC54C

These are just preliminary references, of course, but I thought the
information could be a useful start for you.  As for acquiring more details,
you may have to confer with someone at Fixstars.

All the best...

On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 8:08 AM, Patrice B <pbfwdlist at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello,
>
>  I'm using a Power Station as a build machine to generate code for
> amcc440 cpu using gcc 4.4 with option -mcpu=440fp. Since this release
> of gcc, I notice that code is generated with string instructions which
> are not supported by Power Station cpu, and then, it makes build
> failed if a newly built binary needs to be run for a next build step.
> Is there a way to emulate those instructions on a Power Station (which
> currently runs YDL 6.0)
>
>  Best regards
>
>        Patrice
> _______________________________________________
> yellowdog-general mailing list - yellowdog-general at lists.fixstars.com
> Unsuscribe info:
> http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general
> HINT: to Google archives, try  '&lt;keywords> site:us.fixstars.com'
>



-- 
=========
Refranes/Popular sayings:

The Taino say:
No hay mal que por bien no venga.
There is no evil out of which good cannot blossom.
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From robert.spykerman at gmail.com  Wed Dec  9 09:48:31 2009
From: robert.spykerman at gmail.com (Robert Spykerman)
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 11:48:31 +1100
Subject: [ydl-gen] String instructions emulation on PPC970MP
In-Reply-To: <e749672d0912080508s37059deagd722c2b98d936cd7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e749672d0912080508s37059deagd722c2b98d936cd7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1d5b8ec30912081648g5a6b6c02qda46d0a69de6a6e3@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 12:08 AM, Patrice B <pbfwdlist at gmail.com> wrote:
...
> Is there a way to emulate those instructions on a Power Station (which
> currently runs YDL 6.0)
...
Eh, sorry, was suggesting work-arounds, didn't address your direct question...

I suppose it is possible to emulate in theory. I believe all powerpcs
will generate an exception when they attempt to execute an invalid
instruction that does not translate to the equivalent of a NOP.

I guess it is possible in theory to get an exception handler written
(ie probably within the kernel) to translate dlmzb and related string
opcodes implemented on the 440 but not the 970.

However, I recall something about powerpc's in general that can treat
quite a few hex words as NOPs. If this instruction actually translates
to a NOP on a 970 it may get a little trickier, but if you're already
getting an illegal instruction error, then, maybe an exception handler
like that can be written.

I do not however know if this is already done, or how easy it will be
to do this. Presumably, one has to write the equivalent translation
assembly code and then find a way to hook it up to the exception
handler that already exists - and find a place for this code to live.
And then debug it :)

It looks to me like you've got to hack the kernel, if you want to try
this, unless someone's already done this.

Given the wide variation and differing degrees of implementation of
the powerpc instruction set on the various processors, it may not be
such idea to try implement some form of a kernel level handler to deal
with unimplemented instructions - of course, this is a compromise.

Again, perhaps just trying to cross-compile and run the resultant code
on the target itself may be the simplest solution (otherwise you could
turn off generation of the dlmzb instruction as I suggeested earlier
if you want to try and run the code on your 970).

What sort of target is this 440 on out of curiosity?  I am assuming if
you could run prior builds from older gccs it must be some sort of
environment not too dissimilar to your build environment?

> ? ? ? ?Patrice
> _______________________________________________
> yellowdog-general mailing list - yellowdog-general at lists.fixstars.com
> Unsuscribe info: http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general
> HINT: to Google archives, try ?'&lt;keywords> site:us.fixstars.com'

Robert Spykerman

-- 
chown -R us ./base

From vtrandal at gmail.com  Wed Dec  9 14:50:18 2009
From: vtrandal at gmail.com (Vincent Randal)
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 22:50:18 -0700
Subject: [ydl-gen] =?iso-8859-7?b?wfDc7fTn8+cg5Onh6u/w/u0=?=
In-Reply-To: <53cbcfbf0912082143v5dd3b0fdw5cbcfc604496f33e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.24.1260278183.5397.yellowdog-general@lists.fixstars.com>
	<SNT0-MC2-F4033A0739DCF81B6C0ABE1DE8F0@phx.gbl>
	<53cbcfbf0912082143v5dd3b0fdw5cbcfc604496f33e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53cbcfbf0912082150p68cfd619r6498d4fee68e0340@mail.gmail.com>

oops sorry wasn't paying attention - this is a nice discussion group
(I was't paying attention to email address) and I did not mean to
offend anyone except stupid sotrod spammer.

I wish there was a way to find spammers like that and put a stop to
them. really gets to me as you may have noticed. Again, my apologilies
for the language I accidentally posted to this resepectable discussion
group.

2009/12/8 Vincent Randal <vtrandal at gmail.com>:
> hey fuck off sotrod. take your spam and stick it up your ass. in fact
> stick all your toys up your ass. if I could find you, you would be
> better off with fucking shit crammed up your ass. fucking spammer.
>
> 2009/12/8 ?<sotrod at hotmail.com>:
>> Hey ,friend
>> I find a site to sell electronic products with very good price. Laptop
>> ,iPhone even Motorcycle are very popular .their products are original
>> quality with very low price as wholesale business supplier.They also can do
>> retail business for end user now. maybe it is fit for your business . if you
>> like you can contact them :? ? www.famuch.com
>> E-mail:? famuch at vip.188.com
>> Msn : famuch1 at hotmail.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> yellowdog-general mailing list - yellowdog-general at lists.fixstars.com
>> Unsuscribe info:
>> http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general
>> HINT: to Google archives, try ?'<keywords> site:us.fixstars.com'
>>
>

From vtrandal at gmail.com  Wed Dec  9 14:43:47 2009
From: vtrandal at gmail.com (Vincent Randal)
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 22:43:47 -0700
Subject: [ydl-gen] =?iso-8859-7?b?wfDc7fTn8+cg5Onh6u/w/u0=?=
In-Reply-To: <SNT0-MC2-F4033A0739DCF81B6C0ABE1DE8F0@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.24.1260278183.5397.yellowdog-general@lists.fixstars.com>
	<SNT0-MC2-F4033A0739DCF81B6C0ABE1DE8F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <53cbcfbf0912082143v5dd3b0fdw5cbcfc604496f33e@mail.gmail.com>

hey fuck off sotrod. take your spam and stick it up your ass. in fact
stick all your toys up your ass. if I could find you, you would be
better off with fucking shit crammed up your ass. fucking spammer.

2009/12/8  <sotrod at hotmail.com>:
> Hey ,friend
> I find a site to sell electronic products with very good price. Laptop
> ,iPhone even Motorcycle are very popular .their products are original
> quality with very low price as wholesale business supplier.They also can do
> retail business for end user now. maybe it is fit for your business . if you
> like you can contact them :? ? www.famuch.com
> E-mail:? famuch at vip.188.com
> Msn : famuch1 at hotmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> yellowdog-general mailing list - yellowdog-general at lists.fixstars.com
> Unsuscribe info:
> http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general
> HINT: to Google archives, try ?'<keywords> site:us.fixstars.com'
>

From jeff_yowell at cox.net  Wed Dec  9 14:58:43 2009
From: jeff_yowell at cox.net (Jeff Yowell)
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 23:58:43 -0600
Subject: [ydl-gen]
 =?utf-8?b?zpHPgM6szr3PhM63z4POtyDOtM65zrHOus6/z4DPjs69?=
In-Reply-To: <53cbcfbf0912082143v5dd3b0fdw5cbcfc604496f33e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.24.1260278183.5397.yellowdog-general@lists.fixstars.com>
	<SNT0-MC2-F4033A0739DCF81B6C0ABE1DE8F0@phx.gbl>
	<53cbcfbf0912082143v5dd3b0fdw5cbcfc604496f33e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <172050E2-67A7-4F79-BA40-BE26DD227AC4@cox.net>

Wow... because of your unbridled fury, guess you told off... uh...  everybody on this list - several THOUSAND people..........?

Very interesting.



On Dec 8, 2009, at 11:43 PM, Vincent Randal wrote:

> hey fuck off sotrod. take your spam and stick it up your ass. in fact
> stick all your toys up your ass. if I could find you, you would be
> better off with fucking shit crammed up your ass. fucking spammer.
> 
> 2009/12/8  <sotrod at hotmail.com>:
>> Hey ,friend
>> I find a site to sell electronic products with very good price. Laptop
>> ,iPhone even Motorcycle are very popular .their products are original
>> quality with very low price as wholesale business supplier.They also can do
>> retail business for end user now. maybe it is fit for your business . if you
>> like you can contact them :    www.famuch.com
>> E-mail:  famuch at vip.188.com
>> Msn : famuch1 at hotmail.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> yellowdog-general mailing list - yellowdog-general at lists.fixstars.com
>> Unsuscribe info:
>> http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general
>> HINT: to Google archives, try  '<keywords> site:us.fixstars.com'
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> yellowdog-general mailing list - yellowdog-general at lists.fixstars.com
> Unsuscribe info: http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general
> HINT: to Google archives, try  '&lt;keywords> site:us.fixstars.com'


From robert.spykerman at gmail.com  Wed Dec  9 15:05:04 2009
From: robert.spykerman at gmail.com (Robert Spykerman)
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 17:05:04 +1100
Subject: [ydl-gen] String instructions emulation on PPC970MP
In-Reply-To: <e749672d0912080508s37059deagd722c2b98d936cd7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e749672d0912080508s37059deagd722c2b98d936cd7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1d5b8ec30912082205n2dc93279j431a2a83312d8951@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 12:08 AM, Patrice B <pbfwdlist at gmail.com> wrote:
...
> Is there a way to emulate those instructions on a Power Station (which
> currently runs YDL 6.0)

Hah, had some free time so I looked a bit more. Looks like stuff like
that's been already done.

I grepped around the kernel source (2.6.32) and found some references
to a powerpc virtual machine and the 440 opcodes you are likely to be
encountering. Within the current kernel there is apparently some
support for  kernel virtual machine (KVM). How extensive this is by
default in a normal build or in the default YDL kernel you are running
I do not know, but take a look at this place, it may give you more
answers:

http://www.linux-kvm.org/page/PowerPC

> ?Best regards
>
> ? ? ? ?Patrice

Robert Spykerman

-- 
chown -R us ./base

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 23:26:43 -0700
Subject: [ydl-gen]
	=?utf-8?b?zpHPgM6szr3PhM63z4POtyDOtM65zrHOus6/z4DPjs69?=
In-Reply-To: <53cbcfbf0912082150p68cfd619r6498d4fee68e0340@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.24.1260278183.5397.yellowdog-general@lists.fixstars.com>
	<53cbcfbf0912082143v5dd3b0fdw5cbcfc604496f33e@mail.gmail.com>
	<53cbcfbf0912082150p68cfd619r6498d4fee68e0340@mail.gmail.com>

> I wish there was a way to find spammers like that and put a stop to
> them. really gets to me as you may have noticed. Again, my
> apologilies for the language I accidentally posted to this
> resepectable discussion group.

This is the first spammer to post to this list in 11 years. I would 
not freak out. If it happens again, we can ask the management at 
Fixstars to remove this person.


From pbfwdlist at gmail.com  Wed Dec  9 21:02:41 2009
From: pbfwdlist at gmail.com (Patrice Bouchand)
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 13:02:41 +0100
Subject: [ydl-gen] String instructions emulation on PPC970MP
In-Reply-To: <1d6715a20912081349he2c8ea5k9c46ed42429fa1f8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e749672d0912080508s37059deagd722c2b98d936cd7@mail.gmail.com>
	<1d6715a20912081349he2c8ea5k9c46ed42429fa1f8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <15891dd00912090402k281fb159p2bd4cf4d7de921f3@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

  I do not think my problem is related to this. I have no problem to run the
run code on the final target, once it succeeds to compile.
But anyway, thanks for the information and for your time.

       Regards

                  Patrice

2009/12/8 Derick Centeno <dcenteno at ydl.net>

> Hi Patrice:
>
> I did a little digging and came across the following explanation from IBM
> which explains that the CPU you are coding for (amcc440) requires a specific
> Linux capable of the following:
>
> In versions 2.6.26 and earlier of the Linux kernel, the code did not
> properly clear reserved bits 11 - 15 in word two of a Translation Lookaside
> Buffer (TLB) entry. These bits need to be set to zero as documented in the
> respective user?s manuals to avoid a degradation in performance.
> A change was included in Linux kernel version 2.6.27 which will clear
> reserved bits 11 - 15 bits in the finish_tlb_load function. With these bits
> automatically cleared, inadvertent performance degradation will be avoided.
> Users of the PPC440x6 and all 464 processor cores should use Linux kernel
> version 2.6.27 or later.
>
> You can read the document for yourself here:
>
>
> https://www-01.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/6F95C69A2ED9AE73002575AF005B6E4E
>
> YDL 6.2 does use kernel 2.6.27 (see here:
> http://www.fixstars.com/en/products/ydl/installed.html) however make sure
> that the settings recommended by IBM are in effect for the amcc440.
> However, that would mean that you are directly coding for that cpu not the
> native 970MP which comprises the PowerStation which would explain the
> problems you are reporting.
>
> IBM does have a document explaining coding for the 970MP (which are the
> native cpus within the PowerStation) and the Linux parameters they
> recommend.  That document is here:
>
>
> https://www-01.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/A0C294269DB8D1EC87256FF9004FC54C
>
> These are just preliminary references, of course, but I thought the
> information could be a useful start for you.  As for acquiring more details,
> you may have to confer with someone at Fixstars.
>
> All the best...
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 8:08 AM, Patrice B <pbfwdlist at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>>  I'm using a Power Station as a build machine to generate code for
>> amcc440 cpu using gcc 4.4 with option -mcpu=440fp. Since this release
>> of gcc, I notice that code is generated with string instructions which
>> are not supported by Power Station cpu, and then, it makes build
>> failed if a newly built binary needs to be run for a next build step.
>> Is there a way to emulate those instructions on a Power Station (which
>> currently runs YDL 6.0)
>>
>>  Best regards
>>
>>        Patrice
>> _______________________________________________
>> yellowdog-general mailing list - yellowdog-general at lists.fixstars.com
>> Unsuscribe info:
>> http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general
>> HINT: to Google archives, try  '&lt;keywords> site:us.fixstars.com'
>>
>
>
>
> --
> =========
> Refranes/Popular sayings:
>
> The Taino say:
> No hay mal que por bien no venga.
> There is no evil out of which good cannot blossom.
>
> _______________________________________________
> yellowdog-general mailing list - yellowdog-general at lists.fixstars.com
> Unsuscribe info:
> http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general
> HINT: to Google archives, try  '&lt;keywords> site:us.fixstars.com'
>
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From pbfwdlist at gmail.com  Wed Dec  9 21:32:40 2009
From: pbfwdlist at gmail.com (Patrice Bouchand)
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 13:32:40 +0100
Subject: [ydl-gen] String instructions emulation on PPC970MP
In-Reply-To: <1d5b8ec30912081648g5a6b6c02qda46d0a69de6a6e3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e749672d0912080508s37059deagd722c2b98d936cd7@mail.gmail.com>
	<1d5b8ec30912081648g5a6b6c02qda46d0a69de6a6e3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <15891dd00912090432n6aa70ac9gbc74cf03401e2743@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

Actually, when I run the code with dlmzb on the 970 cpu, I get a SIGILL and
what I would love to do is actually to add a hook on it to be able to run
the code compiled with mcpu=440fp directly on the power-station. I do not
think it's already done and as you said, it seems quite complicated to do
that.

I use the power-station to host chrooted build environments. I'm currently
able to build more than 300 Fedora srpms without any modification in them.
This was true when I used gcc 4.0. gcc 4.4 is much better to optimized for
amcc440 cpu and it is able to manage dlmzb instruction. My goal is to do as
less modification as possible on the srpms, and thus cross-compilation would
not be a good solution since most of the packages are not able to manage the
HOSTCC parameter natively. I have only the problem with srpms that need to
use their own built binary at compile time. Till now, I just remove the
mcpu=440fp option when I build those srpms. Luckily, those rpms are not big
cpu consumers and then, it is not a big deal if they are compiled with or
wihout the 440fp option.

I like your solution of using -mcpu=440fp and -mno-dlmzb option, this is
less drastic than what I was doing till now.

The target CPU is a low power amcc 440 EPX:
http://www.appliedmicro.com/MyAMCC/jsp/public/productDetail/product_detail.jsp?productID=PPC440EPx

   Thanks for your time and your help

              Patrice


> Is there a way to emulate those instructions on a Power Station (which
> > currently runs YDL 6.0)
> ...
> Eh, sorry, was suggesting work-arounds, didn't address your direct
> question...
>
> I suppose it is possible to emulate in theory. I believe all powerpcs
> will generate an exception when they attempt to execute an invalid
> instruction that does not translate to the equivalent of a NOP.
>
> I guess it is possible in theory to get an exception handler written
> (ie probably within the kernel) to translate dlmzb and related string
> opcodes implemented on the 440 but not the 970.
>
> However, I recall something about powerpc's in general that can treat
> quite a few hex words as NOPs. If this instruction actually translates
> to a NOP on a 970 it may get a little trickier, but if you're already
> getting an illegal instruction error, then, maybe an exception handler
> like that can be written.
>
> I do not however know if this is already done, or how easy it will be
> to do this. Presumably, one has to write the equivalent translation
> assembly code and then find a way to hook it up to the exception
> handler that already exists - and find a place for this code to live.
> And then debug it :)
>
> It looks to me like you've got to hack the kernel, if you want to try
> this, unless someone's already done this.
>
> Given the wide variation and differing degrees of implementation of
> the powerpc instruction set on the various processors, it may not be
> such idea to try implement some form of a kernel level handler to deal
> with unimplemented instructions - of course, this is a compromise.
>
> Again, perhaps just trying to cross-compile and run the resultant code
> on the target itself may be the simplest solution (otherwise you could
> turn off generation of the dlmzb instruction as I suggeested earlier
> if you want to try and run the code on your 970).
>
> What sort of target is this 440 on out of curiosity?  I am assuming if
> you could run prior builds from older gccs it must be some sort of
> environment not too dissimilar to your build environment?
>
> >        Patrice
> > _______________________________________________
> > yellowdog-general mailing list - yellowdog-general at lists.fixstars.com
> > Unsuscribe info:
> http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general
> > HINT: to Google archives, try  '&lt;keywords> site:us.fixstars.com'
>
> Robert Spykerman
>
> --
> chown -R us ./base
> _______________________________________________
> yellowdog-general mailing list - yellowdog-general at lists.fixstars.com
> Unsuscribe info:
> http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general
> HINT: to Google archives, try  '&lt;keywords> site:us.fixstars.com'
>
...
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From vtrandal at gmail.com  Thu Dec 10 01:48:32 2009
From: vtrandal at gmail.com (Vincent Randal)
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 09:48:32 -0700
Subject: [ydl-gen] =?iso-8859-7?b?wfDc7fTn8+cg5Onh6u/w/u0=?=
References: <mailman.24.1260278183.5397.yellowdog-general@lists.fixstars.com>
	<53cbcfbf0912082143v5dd3b0fdw5cbcfc604496f33e@mail.gmail.com>
	<53cbcfbf0912082150p68cfd619r6498d4fee68e0340@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53cbcfbf0912090848u41a326efu6004e30c87bf362e@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you. Again I apologize. I really thought I was telling off this
one spammer privately. I was careless. I am sorry.

>> I wish there was a way to find spammers like that and put a stop to
>> them. really gets to me as you may have noticed. Again, my
>> apologilies for the language I accidentally posted to this
>> resepectable discussion group.
>
> This is the first spammer to post to this list in 11 years. I would
> not freak out. If it happens again, we can ask the management at
> Fixstars to remove this person.
>
> _______________________________________________
> yellowdog-general mailing list - yellowdog-general at lists.fixstars.com
> Unsuscribe info: http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general
> HINT: to Google archives, try ?'&lt;keywords> site:us.fixstars.com'
>

From robert.spykerman at gmail.com  Thu Dec 10 05:24:25 2009
From: robert.spykerman at gmail.com (Robert Spykerman)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 07:24:25 +1100
Subject: [ydl-gen] String instructions emulation on PPC970MP
In-Reply-To: <15891dd00912090432n6aa70ac9gbc74cf03401e2743@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e749672d0912080508s37059deagd722c2b98d936cd7@mail.gmail.com>
	<1d5b8ec30912081648g5a6b6c02qda46d0a69de6a6e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<15891dd00912090432n6aa70ac9gbc74cf03401e2743@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1d5b8ec30912091224k4f0d7987qc33f598ee9bdd938@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 11:32 PM, Patrice Bouchand <pbfwdlist at gmail.com> wrote:
...
> I like your solution of using -mcpu=440fp and -mno-dlmzb option, this is
> less drastic than what I was doing till now.
...
I'm glad it works then ;)

I was frankly surprised to find that flag there. It must be that
someone else might have previously had the same problem, heh.

I haven't looked at the virtualisation link I stuck up (ie KVM/Qemu)
very carefully yet but it may be possible with those tools (I am
making a BIG assumption here so I could be really wrong) to be able to
host a virtual 440 in its own little environment on your Powerstation
(ie not just a chroot but a true VM). It may involve a rebuild of the
kernel I suspect - for the KVM module possibly.

That way perhaps you can build binaries with full optimisation and yet
have them tested out on your 970's linux.

> ? ? ? ?Patrice

Robert Spykerman
-- 
chown -R us ./base

From tyler at tylerbrenner.com  Fri Dec 11 07:04:23 2009
From: tyler at tylerbrenner.com (Tyler Brenner)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 17:04:23 -0500
Subject: [ydl-gen] PowerMac G4 Wireless Options
Message-ID: <4fa382ed0912101404j786ed15cj7c8511a6ed416e3b@mail.gmail.com>

HI all,

New to YDL.  I'm just curious if there's anyone who's had success
using an airport or any other means of wireless receiver for a
PowerMac?

Regards

-- 
Tyler Brenner

From dcenteno at ydl.net  Fri Dec 11 09:21:40 2009
From: dcenteno at ydl.net (Derick Centeno)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 19:21:40 -0500
Subject: [ydl-gen] PowerMac G4 Wireless Options
In-Reply-To: <4fa382ed0912101404j786ed15cj7c8511a6ed416e3b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4fa382ed0912101404j786ed15cj7c8511a6ed416e3b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1d6715a20912101621p379f3781uc11c15a14a568ef6@mail.gmail.com>

I was able to get Airport Extreme working within YDL.  Implementing the
directions were straightforward.

All the best...

On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 5:04 PM, Tyler Brenner <tyler at tylerbrenner.com>wrote:

> HI all,
>
> New to YDL.  I'm just curious if there's anyone who's had success
> using an airport or any other means of wireless receiver for a
> PowerMac?
>
> Regards
>
> --
> Tyler Brenner
> _______________________________________________
> yellowdog-general mailing list - yellowdog-general at lists.fixstars.com
> Unsuscribe info:
> http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general
> HINT: to Google archives, try  '&lt;keywords> site:us.fixstars.com'
>



-- 
=========
Refranes/Popular sayings:

The Taino say:
No hay mal que por bien no venga.
There is no evil out of which good cannot blossom.
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From james.wujciak at baesystems.com  Fri Dec 11 20:50:29 2009
From: james.wujciak at baesystems.com (Wujciak, James (US SSA))
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 06:50:29 -0500
Subject: [ydl-gen] PowerMac G4 Wireless Options
In-Reply-To: <4fa382ed0912101404j786ed15cj7c8511a6ed416e3b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7nafpc$2fusec@dmzms99902.na.baesystems.com>

First check your hardware against the supported hardware page: http://www.yellowdoglinux.com/support/hardware/ 

And then the HOTOs for general and version specific items: 
http://www.yellowdoglinux.com/support/solutions/ 

Jim Wujciak 


-----Original Message-----
From: yellowdog-general-bounces at lists.fixstars.com [mailto:yellowdog-general-bounces at lists.fixstars.com] On Behalf Of Tyler Brenner
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2009 5:04 PM
To: yellowdog-general at lists.fixstars.com
Subject: [ydl-gen] PowerMac G4 Wireless Options

HI all,

New to YDL.  I'm just curious if there's anyone who's had success
using an airport or any other means of wireless receiver for a
PowerMac?

Regards

-- 
Tyler Brenner
_______________________________________________
yellowdog-general mailing list - yellowdog-general at lists.fixstars.com
Unsuscribe info: http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general
HINT: to Google archives, try  '&lt;keywords> site:us.fixstars.com'

From fam.preiss at hotmail.com  Sun Dec 20 03:54:14 2009
From: fam.preiss at hotmail.com (Celine-Alexander M. Preiss)
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 19:54:14 +0100
Subject: [ydl-gen] Bluetooth and WLAN with WEP enabled
Message-ID: <COL111-W35C929FD84CBB861A5609085840@phx.gbl>



HI,
I just got e friend to install
yellow dog (I think he installed vers. 6.1) on my old PS3, all seems to work fine, except
the following:

A) Bluetooth used to communicate with the
wireless keyboard does not work.
B) WLAN with WEP security
enabled, does not seem to work.

How should we proceed to get
the Bluetooth keyboard option to work, anny one that have managed to
get this to work?

How should we proceed (in the PS3) to get
the WLAN connection to run with WEP security?

I would be great
full for any inputs ASAP, so the we get a nice Christmas with our
Yellowdog installed fully and operational on our PS3.

Thanks
in advance,

Your sincerely
Alexander Preiss 

 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Keep your friends updated?even when you?re not signed in.
http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/see-it-in-action/social-network-basics.aspx?ocid=PID23461::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-xm:SI_SB_5:092010
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From dcenteno at ydl.net  Sun Dec 20 07:43:58 2009
From: dcenteno at ydl.net (Derick Centeno)
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 17:43:58 -0500
Subject: [ydl-gen] Bluetooth and WLAN with WEP enabled
In-Reply-To: <COL111-W35C929FD84CBB861A5609085840@phx.gbl>
References: <COL111-W35C929FD84CBB861A5609085840@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20091219174358.4e1abe38@arakus>

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 19:54:14 +0100
"Celine-Alexander M. Preiss" <fam.preiss at hotmail.com> wrote:

> 
> 
> HI,
> I just got e friend to install
> yellow dog (I think he installed vers. 6.1) on my old PS3, all seems
> to work fine, except the following:
> 
> A) Bluetooth used to communicate with the
> wireless keyboard does not work.
> B) WLAN with WEP security
> enabled, does not seem to work.
> 
> How should we proceed to get
> the Bluetooth keyboard option to work, anny one that have managed to
> get this to work?
> 
Update your YDL installation by first going into superuser or
root mode by starting the Terminal within YDL.  You'll know you are in
root or superuser mode when you see #.  Next start yum to find the
bluetooth software you need.  Here's an example done on my own YDL
computer:

[aguila at arakus ~]$ su 
Password: 
[root at arakus aguila]# yum info "*bluetooth*"
Loading "installonlyn" plugin
extras              100% |=========================|  951 B 00:00
updates             100% |=========================|  951 B 00:00
base                100% |=========================| 1.1 kB 00:00
Available Packages Name   : gnome-bluetooth Arch   : ppc Version: 0.7.0
Release: 10.2
Size   : 242 k
Repo   : base
Summary: GNOME Bluetooth Subsystem
Description:
This package contains a Bonobo server to control Bluetooth devices,
and a simple GUI to explore which devices are available
(gnome-bluetooth-manager).  Also, an OBEX server is available,
gnome-obex-server.  This will receive files sent via Bluetooth to your
PC, and save them in your home directory.

Name   : gnome-bluetooth-devel
Arch   : ppc
Version: 0.7.0
Release: 10.2
Size   : 10 k
Repo   : base
Summary: Files for the development of applications, which use
gnome-bluetooth Description:
This package contains the files for the development of applications,
which will use gnome-bluetooth.

Name   : gnome-bluetooth-libs
Arch   : ppc
Version: 0.7.0
Release: 10.2
Size   : 78 k
Repo   : base
Summary: Libraries for applications, which use gnome-bluetooth
Description:
This package contains the libraries for applications, which use
gnome-bluetooth.

Name   : nautilus-sendto-bluetooth
Arch   : ppc
Version: 0.7
Release: 6
Size   : 10 k
Repo   : base
Summary: Nautilus integration for Bluetooth
Description:
A nautilus-sendto plugin for sending files via Bluetooth.

Name   : pulseaudio-module-bluetooth
Arch   : ppc
Version: 0.9.10
Release: 1.el5.1
Size   : 23 k
Repo   : extras
Summary: Bluetooth proximity support for the PulseAudio sound server
Description:
Contains a module that can be used to automatically turn down the
volume if a bluetooth mobile phone leaves the proximity or turn it up
again if it enters the proximity again

[root at arakus aguila]# 

Explanation:
The * is a wildcard symbol instructing the computer to accept any
combination of characters forming a name - a quick means to save a lot
of typing.  In this case, you see the various bluetooth software which
is available to be downloaded and installed.  If the software was
installed in your system already it was say installed in the Repo field.

Let's say the gnome bluetooth libraries make the most sense given what
you are trying to do.  Then do:

[root at arakus aguila]# yum install "gnom*bl*"
Loading "installonlyn" plugin
Setting up Install Process
Parsing package install arguments
Resolving Dependencies
--> Running transaction check
---> Package gnome-bluetooth-libs.ppc 0:0.7.0-10.2 set to be updated
---> Package gnome-bluetooth-devel.ppc 0:0.7.0-10.2 set to be updated
---> Package gnome-bluetooth.ppc 0:0.7.0-10.2 set to be updated
--> Processing Dependency: libbtctl-devel for package:
gnome-bluetooth-devel --> Processing Dependency: libopenobex.so.1 for
package: gnome-bluetooth --> Processing Dependency: libbtctl.so.2 for
package: gnome-bluetooth-libs --> Processing Dependency: libbtctl.so.2
for package: gnome-bluetooth --> Restarting Dependency Resolution with
new changes. --> Running transaction check
---> Package openobex.ppc 0:1.3-3.1 set to be updated
---> Package libbtctl.ppc 0:0.6.0-9.2 set to be updated
---> Package libbtctl-devel.ppc 0:0.6.0-9.2 set to be updated

Dependencies Resolved

=============================================================================
 Package                 Arch       Version          Repository
Size
=============================================================================
Installing: 
gnome-bluetooth         ppc        0.7.0-10.2       base 242 k
gnome-bluetooth-devel   ppc        0.7.0-10.2       base 10 k
gnome-bluetooth-libs    ppc        0.7.0-10.2       base 78 k
Installing for dependencies: 
libbtctl                ppc        0.6.0-9.2        base 50 k
libbtctl-devel          ppc        0.6.0-9.2        base 48 k 
openobex                ppc        1.3-3.1          base 22 k

Transaction Summary
=============================================================================
Install      6 Package(s)         
Update       0 Package(s)         
Remove       0 Package(s)         

Total download size: 449 k
Is this ok [y/N]: 

Answer either yes or no and yum will find, list and install all
associated programs for you.  Your keyboard should work afterwards.

However, as I don't have a PS3 you may feel more comfortable
participating on the YDL Board.  Here's a link to one page which may be
helpful:

http://yellowdog-board.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=6836&p=34503&hilit=ps3+bluetooth+keyboard#p34503

> How should we proceed (in the PS3) to get
> the WLAN connection to run with WEP security?
> 

Let's assume that you know how to setup your router so that it
transmits either WPA, WEP or something else.  The recommendations I've
read regarding wireless security advise that WPA2 or WPA2-PSK be
implemented as they are harder to crack.  Also remember to setup your
router's firewall.  Regarding getting the settings running from within
YDL on a PS3 another link to the YDL Board may be helpful:

http://yellowdog-board.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=6931&p=35040&hilit=WLAN+PS3#p35040

May you have a wonderful celebration during the holidays and New Year!

From fam.preiss at hotmail.com  Tue Dec 22 06:53:25 2009
From: fam.preiss at hotmail.com (Celine-Alexander M. Preiss)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 22:53:25 +0100
Subject: [ydl-gen] Linux yellow dog manual for dummies
Message-ID: <COL111-W1459CEEE0FA42725AEA47D85820@phx.gbl>



Hi,
Anyone that could recommend what
type (title and author) and where to order a suitable book to use to
get a beginner a bit educated in Linux (preferable yellow dog), (I
have some programmer experience from VB, and Pascal)?



I am hoping to get some reading for
Christmas, and some fun with my PS3. 




I wish all readers of this a Marry
Christmas and a Happy New Year.

Kind Regards
Alexander



 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Keep your friends updated?even when you?re not signed in.
http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/see-it-in-action/social-network-basics.aspx?ocid=PID23461::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-xm:SI_SB_5:092010
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From dcenteno at ydl.net  Thu Dec 24 00:23:23 2009
From: dcenteno at ydl.net (Derick Centeno)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 10:23:23 -0500
Subject: [ydl-gen] Linux yellow dog manual for dummies
In-Reply-To: <COL111-W1459CEEE0FA42725AEA47D85820@phx.gbl>
References: <COL111-W1459CEEE0FA42725AEA47D85820@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20091223102323.6e3a53c7@arakus>

On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 22:53:25 +0100
"Celine-Alexander M. Preiss" <fam.preiss at hotmail.com> wrote:

> 
> 
> Hi,
> Anyone that could recommend what
> type (title and author) and where to order a suitable book to use to
> get a beginner a bit educated in Linux (preferable yellow dog), (I
> have some programmer experience from VB, and Pascal)?
> 
> 
Yellow Dog Linux (YDL) is a Linux variant which follows how every Linux
distribution behaves.  Where it is different is on the computer it runs
on which in your case is a PS3.  This means that you could pick up any
book discussing Linux and learn something by practicing whatever is
discussed within YDL.

As you've mentioned Pascal and VB, it is clear you intend to learn
programming within YDL.  The are many computer languages and opinions
regarding them especially in regards to how useful a computer language
may be to someone learning to program.  This point leads directly to
why Pascal was created in the first place; it was an attempt to make
things a little easier for beginners.  VB follows that intent believe
it or not.  The standard/core essential languages in Linux/Unix however
are C and C++ and there are debates which exist still (over 40 years
old) regarding which are more useful.  The problem really is a matter
of developing skills to manage and control different aspects of
computer hardware and implementing a program design to do something
useful.

This means that if you want to program such that a pretty picture
appears when you type Hello, Pascal and VB are fine.  However if you
want to seriously analyze computer processing to ferret out a problem
you need C.  There are as many books on C and C++ as there are
snowflakes; I suggest you start at whatever level of reading with an
author who makes sense to you and build upon that understanding.

Some books I'd recommend:

Linux Programming Bible by John Goerzen; Thinking in C++ by Bruce Eckel
(be sure to check out his website and free books); Using Linux System
Adminstration by Danesh and Das.

You can find them at Barnes & Noble or Amazon.com

Be sure to use the YDL Board as a resource so that you "meet" other PS3
users like yourself, as well as others who program using YDL on various
hardware systems.  There's a lot a good people there who can help you
move forward a lot faster than you going it solo.

> I am hoping to get some reading for
> Christmas, and some fun with my PS3. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wish all readers of this a Marry
> Christmas and a Happy New Year.
> 
> Kind Regards
> Alexander
All the best to you and all

=========

Refranes/Popular sayings:
The Taino say:No hay mal que por bien no venga.
There is no evil out of which good cannot blossom.
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From robert.spykerman at gmail.com  Thu Dec 24 08:09:48 2009
From: robert.spykerman at gmail.com (Robert Spykerman)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 10:09:48 +1100
Subject: [ydl-gen] Linux yellow dog manual for dummies
In-Reply-To: <20091223102323.6e3a53c7@arakus>
References: <COL111-W1459CEEE0FA42725AEA47D85820@phx.gbl>
	<20091223102323.6e3a53c7@arakus>
Message-ID: <1d5b8ec30912231509y8cc1357x6e4681c7c1349c15@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 2:23 AM, Derick Centeno <dcenteno at ydl.net> wrote:
...snip...
> Be sure to use the YDL Board as a resource so that you "meet" other PS3
> users like yourself, as well as others who program using YDL on various
> hardware systems. ?There's a lot a good people there who can help you
> move forward a lot faster than you going it solo.

I completely agree. There are not many online forums for YDL - I
believe this mailing list and the YDL board
http://www.yellowdog-board.com/ are the only two specific ones.

I am new to YDL too myself. I suspect not many people use it very much
these days if traffic in these lists or the YDL board is anything to
go by, at least relative to the traffic you can see on the ubuntu
boards.

As much as I hate saying this, you may want to check out Ubuntu as an
alternative for a beginner for the following reason -  there appear to
be more distro specific 'current' books on the shelves of local
bookshops, and at a brief glance, their forums appear to be more
active. No doubt some questions and issues you will have will be ps3
specific but they have a forum for that too. People say ubuntu gnome
or kde (kubuntu) is a big of a memory hog so some say xubuntu (xfce
desktop) is possibly the best variant to install on the ps3.

Your mileage may vary, I chose YDL and have stuck with it for a number
of reasons namely the reputation and I have not ever tried an rpm
distro before.

By the way, you may find that some advice or tips for Red hat
Enterprise Linux / CentOS 5.2 may apply to YDL too (big 'may' there)
as I believe that's the base source YDL is compiled from.

Cheers, happy Christmas.

Robert


-- 
chown -R us ./base

From aaron.urbain at gmail.com  Thu Dec 24 11:53:58 2009
From: aaron.urbain at gmail.com (Aaron Urbain)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 21:53:58 -0500
Subject: [ydl-gen] Linux yellow dog manual for dummies
In-Reply-To: <d40c510f0912231853h32b5605ao8f035600c1b6e23e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <COL111-W1459CEEE0FA42725AEA47D85820@phx.gbl>
	<20091223102323.6e3a53c7@arakus>
	<1d5b8ec30912231509y8cc1357x6e4681c7c1349c15@mail.gmail.com>
	<d40c510f0912231853h32b5605ao8f035600c1b6e23e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d40c510f0912231853h4c9b4c99v672cca05400bb9d@mail.gmail.com>

Read the gentoo wiki

On Dec 23, 2009 6:09 PM, "Robert Spykerman" <robert.spykerman at gmail.com>
wrote:

On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 2:23 AM, Derick Centeno <dcenteno at ydl.net> wrote:
...snip...

> Be sure to use the YDL Board as a resource so that you "meet" other PS3 >
users like yourself, as ...
I completely agree. There are not many online forums for YDL - I
believe this mailing list and the YDL board
http://www.yellowdog-board.com/ are the only two specific ones.

I am new to YDL too myself. I suspect not many people use it very much
these days if traffic in these lists or the YDL board is anything to
go by, at least relative to the traffic you can see on the ubuntu
boards.

As much as I hate saying this, you may want to check out Ubuntu as an
alternative for a beginner for the following reason -  there appear to
be more distro specific 'current' books on the shelves of local
bookshops, and at a brief glance, their forums appear to be more
active. No doubt some questions and issues you will have will be ps3
specific but they have a forum for that too. People say ubuntu gnome
or kde (kubuntu) is a big of a memory hog so some say xubuntu (xfce
desktop) is possibly the best variant to install on the ps3.

Your mileage may vary, I chose YDL and have stuck with it for a number
of reasons namely the reputation and I have not ever tried an rpm
distro before.

By the way, you may find that some advice or tips for Red hat
Enterprise Linux / CentOS 5.2 may apply to YDL too (big 'may' there)
as I believe that's the base source YDL is compiled from.

Cheers, happy Christmas.

Robert


--
chown -R us ./base
_______________________________________________
yellowdog-general mailing list - yellowdog-general at lists.fixstars.com
Unsuscribe info:
http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general
HINT: to Google archives, try  '&lt;keywords> site:us.fixstars.com'
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From robert.spykerman at gmail.com  Thu Dec 24 21:09:25 2009
From: robert.spykerman at gmail.com (Robert Spykerman)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 12:09:25 +0000
Subject: [ydl-gen] Linux yellow dog manual for dummies
In-Reply-To: <d40c510f0912231853h4c9b4c99v672cca05400bb9d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <COL111-W1459CEEE0FA42725AEA47D85820@phx.gbl>
	<20091223102323.6e3a53c7@arakus>
	<1d5b8ec30912231509y8cc1357x6e4681c7c1349c15@mail.gmail.com>
	<d40c510f0912231853h32b5605ao8f035600c1b6e23e@mail.gmail.com>
	<d40c510f0912231853h4c9b4c99v672cca05400bb9d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1d5b8ec30912240409q5bc7feerfba268f5adde33a@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 2:53 AM, Aaron Urbain <aaron.urbain at gmail.com> wrote:
> Read the gentoo wiki

I would on one hand encourage the OP to try gentoo, as there is a lot
to be learnt from doing it that way but on the other I would say that
unfortunately for a beginner it may be better off learning about
gentoo on the x86 where it is more error free and tested.

By the way, the gentoo ppc handbook on the gentoo site will only
partially work...

The kernel on the  liveCD from 'experimental' dates back to 2007 and
is slightly incompatible with the current stage3. chroot into your new
stage3 gentoo and run portage and the new chroot python/glibc on it
will choke.

If you want to do it this way, you will need to patch one of the
python scripts that makes that offending glibc call in portage just to
emerge and build the kernel, then boot with the new kernel. I can't
remember which file it was in, but python will tell you where the bad
call is, I just fed it the numbers it wanted and it worked. I would
then undo that patch and proceed per normal gentoo install.

Cheers

Robert
-- 
chown -R us ./base

From dcenteno at ydl.net  Fri Dec 25 05:27:42 2009
From: dcenteno at ydl.net (Derick Centeno)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 15:27:42 -0500
Subject: [ydl-gen] Linux yellow dog manual for dummies
In-Reply-To: <1d5b8ec30912231509y8cc1357x6e4681c7c1349c15@mail.gmail.com>
References: <COL111-W1459CEEE0FA42725AEA47D85820@phx.gbl>
	<20091223102323.6e3a53c7@arakus>
	<1d5b8ec30912231509y8cc1357x6e4681c7c1349c15@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20091224152742.24a66470@arakus>

On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 10:09:48 +1100
Robert Spykerman <robert.spykerman at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 2:23 AM, Derick Centeno <dcenteno at ydl.net>
> wrote: ...snip...
> > Be sure to use the YDL Board as a resource so that you "meet" other
> > PS3 users like yourself, as well as others who program using YDL on
> > various hardware systems. ?There's a lot a good people there who
> > can help you move forward a lot faster than you going it solo.
> 
> I completely agree. There are not many online forums for YDL - I
> believe this mailing list and the YDL board
> http://www.yellowdog-board.com/ are the only two specific ones.
> 
> I am new to YDL too myself. I suspect not many people use it very much
> these days if traffic in these lists or the YDL board is anything to
> go by, at least relative to the traffic you can see on the ubuntu
> boards.
>       

You are quite right Robert, the traffic regarding PowerPC programming
has changed quite a bit over the years.  There had been a great deal of
traffic here when Apple incorporated the PowerPC in it's computer
hardware.  When Apple switched to Intel there were many changes in
the traffic here and then Microsoft, Nintendo and Sony developed game
systems which incorporated not only the most advanced PowerPC system
available to date (the Cell) but the most intensively powerful CPU
available to consumers.  Out of all these companies however only Sony
allowed an option which allowed users to use and run YDL on their PS3s
thereby turning what had been merely a game computer into the
equivalent of a supercomputer available to forward looking consumers.

Of course, not everyone who purchased the PS3 would be interested in
hi-tech programming on the Cell but that potential was available as
long as Sony allowed the OtherOS option to exist.  With the OtherOS
option all members of the family could not only play games but explore
advanced technical areas ranging from introductory to advanced
programming concepts of nearly every level of endeavor.  The only
comparison I can think of is imagining families with the PS3 being
awarded a free perpetual opportunity to attend the most advanced
computer labs at MIT or Stanford or Yale for their own personal
exploration and use. The Cell is that flexible.

However for various reasons Sony closed that potential when the Slim
version of the PS3 was released while they almost simultaneously
announced that no further PS3s would be produced with the OtherOS
option which meant that only the previous generation PS3s with the
OtherOS option would continue to be sold until the inventory was
exhausted.  This meant that although there would continue to be persons
who ran YDL on PS3s that number would be finite and would not include
anyone who purchased the PS3 Slim forward.  

Fixstars which produces YDL, runs on many PowerPC systems however fewer
of these available systems exist at a price which consumers normally
purchase between $200-$500.  Fixstar's PowerStation for instance can be
had for $1000+ and if one wants the Cell included with that there
exists a PCI card which one can purchase fits into the PowerStation
beginning at $6,000+.  There will be lovers of hi-tech and
professionals involved in programming advanced systems who will use YDL,
YDEL, etc.  which run on such PowerPC technologies which may be or
become available but this is no longer the "family" or "consumer"
priced systems which people have considered as reasonably affordable
over during the years Apple or Sony sold their systems which means as
well that fewer people will have experience with advanced computers.

Intel technology is popular and common, but it is not based on
radically new thinking as regards computer architecture.  Intel rather
is very astute in utilizing old architectures in radically new ways.
As inventive as such approaches are in my thinking it is akin to
considering how many ways a paper clip can bend.

In fact, this is exactly why the modern market has developed into the
weird reality we find ourselves in where Microsoft, Nintendo and Sony
are vendors who each run the Cell in their own very powerful computing
game systems but each system is "locked" in the sense that consumers
cannot use Linux to utilize the flexibility of the Cell on any of
these systems for themselves or their families.  This is great for
producing strictly advanced gaming computers however it is terrible for
those who want to use those same computers as working systems or family
based learning and research systems which run independently designed
projects.  In fact, families and individuals who purchase the Xbox, Wii
and PS3 Slim now have to also purchase other computers as their
work/research stations at home.  The consumer is paying very much more
than twice over all these purchases.

A range of technical details exploring various views exists within the
YDL Board for those who are interested in researching the topic.

> As much as I hate saying this, you may want to check out Ubuntu as an
> alternative for a beginner for the following reason -  there appear to
> be more distro specific 'current' books on the shelves of local
> bookshops, and at a brief glance, their forums appear to be more
> active. No doubt some questions and issues you will have will be ps3
> specific but they have a forum for that too. People say ubuntu gnome
> or kde (kubuntu) is a big of a memory hog so some say xubuntu (xfce
> desktop) is possibly the best variant to install on the ps3.
>       
Ubuntu is a variant of Debian Linux.  Oddly enough however Ubuntu
decided to cease officially supporting PowerPC systems quite sometime
ago which means that help is entirely provided as it is by the
"community" which really means whoever cares to do so which also means
whenever someone has the opportunity to get to it. This is a really
terrible development for beginners who need as much help as possible
from professionals who are at the top of their game. Read more here:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PowerPC

I have participated on this list long enough to remember a good number
of people who not only were encouraging others to switch to Ubuntu but
doing everything possible to "pull" people over there.  When Ubuntu
made their choice those people who had left here either had to switch
to Intel Linux or accept Ubuntu's terms.  I'm not aware of those who
came back to participate on the YDL lists or the YDL Board again.  It
was really pretty sad all the way around -- all that energy and
enthusiasm wasted.

Oddly enough however professional support remains with Debian Linux
itself although they always primarily supported x86 or Intel based
Linux. See here:  http://www.debian.org/ports/powerpc/index.en.html

The professionals who developed YDL, Terra Soft Solutions (TSS), have
always been at the top of the PowerPC development environment.  In the
past, this was nearly the exclusive achievement of TSS; it may not be
possible for any company to exclusively develop for one computer
architecture any longer -- we will have to see how Fixstars (who
inherited YDL from TSS) chooses to move in the current environment which
exists.

Regardless what they do however the marketplace as far as the normal
user is concerned is extremely expensive given what has taken place.

In many ways, the deal regarding the old PS3s remains a fast
disappearing opportunity which would be wise to acquire as quickly as
possible because once it is gone, that is pretty much it unless another
company finds a means to re-introduce the Cell or another PowerPC
system as something other than a game or cellphone computer.

May everyone have a wonderful celebration of these holidays and New
Year.


=========

Refranes/Popular sayings:
The Taino say:No hay mal que por bien no venga.
There is no evil out of which good cannot blossom.
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From warren at phys.washington.edu  Fri Dec 25 05:46:10 2009
From: warren at phys.washington.edu (Warren Nagourney)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 12:46:10 -0800
Subject: [ydl-gen] Linux yellow dog manual for dummies
In-Reply-To: <20091224152742.24a66470@arakus>
References: <COL111-W1459CEEE0FA42725AEA47D85820@phx.gbl>
	<20091223102323.6e3a53c7@arakus>
	<1d5b8ec30912231509y8cc1357x6e4681c7c1349c15@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091224152742.24a66470@arakus>
Message-ID: <C8D1E231-3A71-4B72-93DA-34B9BD921B4C@phys.washington.edu>

I might also add that, due to recent announcements from IBM, the  
future of the Cell processor is in doubt. In November, IBM announced  
that it was canceling the next iteration of the Cell, the one with 32  
SPE cores. I would therefore hesitate in investing any time in  
learning Cell programming.

As a result of IBM's announcement, there was a flurry of talk on tech- 
savvy sites (such as ars technica) about the end of the Cell and since  
IBM made no attempt to refute these inferences, I can only assume that  
they are phasing out the Cell. Too bad, as it is the only interesting  
computer architecture I have seen in a while. I like your simile  
likening Intel architecture to the rebending of a paper clip, Derick!  
The dominance of computing by one architecture makes the whole  
(hardware) enterprise fairly dull, in my opinion.

Cheers,

Warren Nagourney


On Dec 24, 2009, at 12:27 PM, Derick Centeno wrote:

> On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 10:09:48 +1100
> Robert Spykerman <robert.spykerman at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 2:23 AM, Derick Centeno <dcenteno at ydl.net>
>> wrote: ...snip...
>>> Be sure to use the YDL Board as a resource so that you "meet" other
>>> PS3 users like yourself, as well as others who program using YDL on
>>> various hardware systems.  There's a lot a good people there who
>>> can help you move forward a lot faster than you going it solo.
>>
>> I completely agree. There are not many online forums for YDL - I
>> believe this mailing list and the YDL board
>> http://www.yellowdog-board.com/ are the only two specific ones.
>>
>> I am new to YDL too myself. I suspect not many people use it very  
>> much
>> these days if traffic in these lists or the YDL board is anything to
>> go by, at least relative to the traffic you can see on the ubuntu
>> boards.
>>
>
> You are quite right Robert, the traffic regarding PowerPC programming
> has changed quite a bit over the years.  There had been a great deal  
> of
> traffic here when Apple incorporated the PowerPC in it's computer
> hardware.  When Apple switched to Intel there were many changes in
> the traffic here and then Microsoft, Nintendo and Sony developed game
> systems which incorporated not only the most advanced PowerPC system
> available to date (the Cell) but the most intensively powerful CPU
> available to consumers.  Out of all these companies however only Sony
> allowed an option which allowed users to use and run YDL on their PS3s
> thereby turning what had been merely a game computer into the
> equivalent of a supercomputer available to forward looking consumers.
>
> Of course, not everyone who purchased the PS3 would be interested in
> hi-tech programming on the Cell but that potential was available as
> long as Sony allowed the OtherOS option to exist.  With the OtherOS
> option all members of the family could not only play games but explore
> advanced technical areas ranging from introductory to advanced
> programming concepts of nearly every level of endeavor.  The only
> comparison I can think of is imagining families with the PS3 being
> awarded a free perpetual opportunity to attend the most advanced
> computer labs at MIT or Stanford or Yale for their own personal
> exploration and use. The Cell is that flexible.
>
> However for various reasons Sony closed that potential when the Slim
> version of the PS3 was released while they almost simultaneously
> announced that no further PS3s would be produced with the OtherOS
> option which meant that only the previous generation PS3s with the
> OtherOS option would continue to be sold until the inventory was
> exhausted.  This meant that although there would continue to be  
> persons
> who ran YDL on PS3s that number would be finite and would not include
> anyone who purchased the PS3 Slim forward.
>
> Fixstars which produces YDL, runs on many PowerPC systems however  
> fewer
> of these available systems exist at a price which consumers normally
> purchase between $200-$500.  Fixstar's PowerStation for instance can  
> be
> had for $1000+ and if one wants the Cell included with that there
> exists a PCI card which one can purchase fits into the PowerStation
> beginning at $6,000+.  There will be lovers of hi-tech and
> professionals involved in programming advanced systems who will use  
> YDL,
> YDEL, etc.  which run on such PowerPC technologies which may be or
> become available but this is no longer the "family" or "consumer"
> priced systems which people have considered as reasonably affordable
> over during the years Apple or Sony sold their systems which means as
> well that fewer people will have experience with advanced computers.
>
> Intel technology is popular and common, but it is not based on
> radically new thinking as regards computer architecture.  Intel rather
> is very astute in utilizing old architectures in radically new ways.
> As inventive as such approaches are in my thinking it is akin to
> considering how many ways a paper clip can bend.
>
> In fact, this is exactly why the modern market has developed into the
> weird reality we find ourselves in where Microsoft, Nintendo and Sony
> are vendors who each run the Cell in their own very powerful computing
> game systems but each system is "locked" in the sense that consumers
> cannot use Linux to utilize the flexibility of the Cell on any of
> these systems for themselves or their families.  This is great for
> producing strictly advanced gaming computers however it is terrible  
> for
> those who want to use those same computers as working systems or  
> family
> based learning and research systems which run independently designed
> projects.  In fact, families and individuals who purchase the Xbox,  
> Wii
> and PS3 Slim now have to also purchase other computers as their
> work/research stations at home.  The consumer is paying very much more
> than twice over all these purchases.
>
> A range of technical details exploring various views exists within the
> YDL Board for those who are interested in researching the topic.
>
>> As much as I hate saying this, you may want to check out Ubuntu as an
>> alternative for a beginner for the following reason -  there appear  
>> to
>> be more distro specific 'current' books on the shelves of local
>> bookshops, and at a brief glance, their forums appear to be more
>> active. No doubt some questions and issues you will have will be ps3
>> specific but they have a forum for that too. People say ubuntu gnome
>> or kde (kubuntu) is a big of a memory hog so some say xubuntu (xfce
>> desktop) is possibly the best variant to install on the ps3.
>>
> Ubuntu is a variant of Debian Linux.  Oddly enough however Ubuntu
> decided to cease officially supporting PowerPC systems quite sometime
> ago which means that help is entirely provided as it is by the
> "community" which really means whoever cares to do so which also means
> whenever someone has the opportunity to get to it. This is a really
> terrible development for beginners who need as much help as possible
> from professionals who are at the top of their game. Read more here:
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PowerPC
>
> I have participated on this list long enough to remember a good number
> of people who not only were encouraging others to switch to Ubuntu but
> doing everything possible to "pull" people over there.  When Ubuntu
> made their choice those people who had left here either had to switch
> to Intel Linux or accept Ubuntu's terms.  I'm not aware of those who
> came back to participate on the YDL lists or the YDL Board again.  It
> was really pretty sad all the way around -- all that energy and
> enthusiasm wasted.
>
> Oddly enough however professional support remains with Debian Linux
> itself although they always primarily supported x86 or Intel based
> Linux. See here:  http://www.debian.org/ports/powerpc/index.en.html
>
> The professionals who developed YDL, Terra Soft Solutions (TSS), have
> always been at the top of the PowerPC development environment.  In the
> past, this was nearly the exclusive achievement of TSS; it may not be
> possible for any company to exclusively develop for one computer
> architecture any longer -- we will have to see how Fixstars (who
> inherited YDL from TSS) chooses to move in the current environment  
> which
> exists.
>
> Regardless what they do however the marketplace as far as the normal
> user is concerned is extremely expensive given what has taken place.
>
> In many ways, the deal regarding the old PS3s remains a fast
> disappearing opportunity which would be wise to acquire as quickly as
> possible because once it is gone, that is pretty much it unless  
> another
> company finds a means to re-introduce the Cell or another PowerPC
> system as something other than a game or cellphone computer.
>
> May everyone have a wonderful celebration of these holidays and New
> Year.
>
>
> =========
>
> Refranes/Popular sayings:
> The Taino say:No hay mal que por bien no venga.
> There is no evil out of which good cannot blossom.
> _______________________________________________
> yellowdog-general mailing list - yellowdog-general at lists.fixstars.com
> Unsuscribe info: http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general
> HINT: to Google archives, try  '&lt;keywords> site:us.fixstars.com'


From dcenteno at ydl.net  Fri Dec 25 06:44:54 2009
From: dcenteno at ydl.net (Derick Centeno)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 16:44:54 -0500
Subject: [ydl-gen] Linux yellow dog manual for dummies
In-Reply-To: <C8D1E231-3A71-4B72-93DA-34B9BD921B4C@phys.washington.edu>
References: <COL111-W1459CEEE0FA42725AEA47D85820@phx.gbl>
	<20091223102323.6e3a53c7@arakus>
	<1d5b8ec30912231509y8cc1357x6e4681c7c1349c15@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091224152742.24a66470@arakus>
	<C8D1E231-3A71-4B72-93DA-34B9BD921B4C@phys.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <20091224164454.72f457d5@arakus>

Good to hear from you Warren!!  It's been a long time!!

Glad you liked my analogy.  

I wasn't aware of IBM's announcement.  I guess we are the lucky ones
who got these marvelous computers while they could be had.  Too bad
others won't have the opportunity to explore and develop varied
programming skills which these systems allow.

You are not alone in considering how dull the modern environment is.
Unfortunately, we've become like that tiny core of professionals who
served with Henry II at the Battle of Agincourt mentioned by none other
than Shakespeare -- "We few, we happy few..."

I would have liked to have had more people experience gaining from the
skill of working with these systems.  But if the hardware isn't
available then that's pretty much it, unless one chooses to get gouged
on ebay.

Well, Warren, have a wonderful celebration of the holidays and a most
splendid New Year!!  Likewise to all who are here!!!



On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 12:46:10 -0800
Warren Nagourney <warren at phys.washington.edu> wrote:

> I might also add that, due to recent announcements from IBM, the  
> future of the Cell processor is in doubt. In November, IBM announced  
> that it was canceling the next iteration of the Cell, the one with
> 32 SPE cores. I would therefore hesitate in investing any time in  
> learning Cell programming.
> 
> As a result of IBM's announcement, there was a flurry of talk on
> tech- savvy sites (such as ars technica) about the end of the Cell
> and since IBM made no attempt to refute these inferences, I can only
> assume that they are phasing out the Cell. Too bad, as it is the only
> interesting computer architecture I have seen in a while. I like your
> simile likening Intel architecture to the rebending of a paper clip,
> Derick! The dominance of computing by one architecture makes the
> whole (hardware) enterprise fairly dull, in my opinion.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Warren Nagourney
> 




=========

Refranes/Popular sayings:
The Taino say:No hay mal que por bien no venga.
There is no evil out of which good cannot blossom.
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From warren at phys.washington.edu  Fri Dec 25 06:57:49 2009
From: warren at phys.washington.edu (Warren Nagourney)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 13:57:49 -0800
Subject: [ydl-gen] Linux yellow dog manual for dummies
In-Reply-To: <20091224164454.72f457d5@arakus>
References: <COL111-W1459CEEE0FA42725AEA47D85820@phx.gbl>
	<20091223102323.6e3a53c7@arakus>
	<1d5b8ec30912231509y8cc1357x6e4681c7c1349c15@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091224152742.24a66470@arakus>
	<C8D1E231-3A71-4B72-93DA-34B9BD921B4C@phys.washington.edu>
	<20091224164454.72f457d5@arakus>
Message-ID: <657756DA-2EE3-4049-9BD3-D24346F30AC4@phys.washington.edu>

Thanks, Derick. I  still love the PPC architecture and recently bought  
an Apple dual core 2.3 GHz G5 for very little money and am finding it  
to be absolutely as fast as I could ever hope for. I will keep it for  
the next 3-5 years (assuming I can keep the power supply running) and  
maybe then, the dominance of x86 may have lessened (it can't last  
forever!).

Merry Christmas and Happy 2010,

Warren N

On Dec 24, 2009, at 1:44 PM, Derick Centeno wrote:

> Good to hear from you Warren!!  It's been a long time!!
>
> Glad you liked my analogy.
>
> I wasn't aware of IBM's announcement.  I guess we are the lucky ones
> who got these marvelous computers while they could be had.  Too bad
> others won't have the opportunity to explore and develop varied
> programming skills which these systems allow.
>
> You are not alone in considering how dull the modern environment is.
> Unfortunately, we've become like that tiny core of professionals who
> served with Henry II at the Battle of Agincourt mentioned by none  
> other
> than Shakespeare -- "We few, we happy few..."
>
> I would have liked to have had more people experience gaining from the
> skill of working with these systems.  But if the hardware isn't
> available then that's pretty much it, unless one chooses to get gouged
> on ebay.
>
> Well, Warren, have a wonderful celebration of the holidays and a most
> splendid New Year!!  Likewise to all who are here!!!
>
>
>
> On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 12:46:10 -0800
> Warren Nagourney <warren at phys.washington.edu> wrote:
>
>> I might also add that, due to recent announcements from IBM, the
>> future of the Cell processor is in doubt. In November, IBM announced
>> that it was canceling the next iteration of the Cell, the one with
>> 32 SPE cores. I would therefore hesitate in investing any time in
>> learning Cell programming.
>>
>> As a result of IBM's announcement, there was a flurry of talk on
>> tech- savvy sites (such as ars technica) about the end of the Cell
>> and since IBM made no attempt to refute these inferences, I can only
>> assume that they are phasing out the Cell. Too bad, as it is the only
>> interesting computer architecture I have seen in a while. I like your
>> simile likening Intel architecture to the rebending of a paper clip,
>> Derick! The dominance of computing by one architecture makes the
>> whole (hardware) enterprise fairly dull, in my opinion.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Warren Nagourney
>>
>
>
>
>
> =========
>
> Refranes/Popular sayings:
> The Taino say:No hay mal que por bien no venga.
> There is no evil out of which good cannot blossom.
> _______________________________________________
> yellowdog-general mailing list - yellowdog-general at lists.fixstars.com
> Unsuscribe info: http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general
> HINT: to Google archives, try  '&lt;keywords> site:us.fixstars.com'


From dcenteno at ydl.net  Fri Dec 25 07:28:01 2009
From: dcenteno at ydl.net (Derick Centeno)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 17:28:01 -0500
Subject: [ydl-gen] Linux yellow dog manual for dummies
In-Reply-To: <657756DA-2EE3-4049-9BD3-D24346F30AC4@phys.washington.edu>
References: <COL111-W1459CEEE0FA42725AEA47D85820@phx.gbl>
	<20091223102323.6e3a53c7@arakus>
	<1d5b8ec30912231509y8cc1357x6e4681c7c1349c15@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091224152742.24a66470@arakus>
	<C8D1E231-3A71-4B72-93DA-34B9BD921B4C@phys.washington.edu>
	<20091224164454.72f457d5@arakus>
	<657756DA-2EE3-4049-9BD3-D24346F30AC4@phys.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <20091224172801.33b9abc5@arakus>

You may want to know that you may find decent parts for your system
from http://macsales.com/

I think we may have to really keep our PowerPC running for longer than
that although I did hear of someone developing a multicore PowerPC
laptop a month or so ago.  I've got to search for who this fellow is
again as I lost track, but I did hear of a fellow who created a working
Cell based laptop which ran the GameOS and had the OtherOS option.
Pretty neat!

Caveat:  If you replace the power supply or other support parts you
shouldn't have trouble running YDL from it.  Be careful regarding other
components however such as DVD drives: if those go it may be wiser to
consider an external DVD drive in that situation.  I'm unsure if anyone
we knew remains at Fixstars from TSS; it may not be so easy to get the
kind of support we became accustomed to.  In any case, I'd advise you
to consider reviewing what notations remain regarding their advisories
regarding which hardware works with YDL and which do not.  As best I
recall, the past emphasis (by TSS) was to support original Apple parts.

So the problems to watch for may not be RAM as much as internal
associated devices, such as a newer hard drive or modem or something
similar.  It may be better to just get an HD which resides on a PCI
card which your system should recognize with no problem as an external
system; I don't think such a drive would be able to be booted from
within YDL.  It would be interesting to try that out as a concept
though.

Anyway enjoy and all the best!! 

On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 13:57:49 -0800
Warren Nagourney <warren at phys.washington.edu> wrote:

> Thanks, Derick. I  still love the PPC architecture and recently
> bought an Apple dual core 2.3 GHz G5 for very little money and am
> finding it to be absolutely as fast as I could ever hope for. I will
> keep it for the next 3-5 years (assuming I can keep the power supply
> running) and maybe then, the dominance of x86 may have lessened (it
> can't last forever!).
> 
> Merry Christmas and Happy 2010,
> 
> Warren N




=========

Refranes/Popular sayings:
The Taino say:No hay mal que por bien no venga.
There is no evil out of which good cannot blossom.
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From robert.spykerman at gmail.com  Fri Dec 25 22:55:12 2009
From: robert.spykerman at gmail.com (Robert Spykerman)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 00:55:12 +1100
Subject: [ydl-gen] Linux yellow dog manual for dummies
In-Reply-To: <20091224164454.72f457d5@arakus>
References: <COL111-W1459CEEE0FA42725AEA47D85820@phx.gbl>
	<20091223102323.6e3a53c7@arakus>
	<1d5b8ec30912231509y8cc1357x6e4681c7c1349c15@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091224152742.24a66470@arakus>
	<C8D1E231-3A71-4B72-93DA-34B9BD921B4C@phys.washington.edu>
	<20091224164454.72f457d5@arakus>
Message-ID: <1d5b8ec30912250555q47feea15j6809a971bd9b25be@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 25, 2009 at 8:44 AM, Derick Centeno <dcenteno at ydl.net> wrote:

> I wasn't aware of IBM's announcement. ?I guess we are the lucky ones
> who got these marvelous computers while they could be had. ?Too bad
> others won't have the opportunity to explore and develop varied
> programming skills which these systems allow.

I went down to the local EB the other day hoping the fat ps3s (be they
second hand or old stock) would be significantly cheaper with the
express notion of purchasing another....  Alas... not :(

But hmm... there are a few interesting cheap-ish options. Been
thinking of looking into these Sheeva thingies... ie
http://www.plugcomputer.org/

No particular reason. Just because they exist and are not x86's -
Thank heavens they did not put atoms in them - I think one would make
a really nice home server with low energy costs,  but it won't be fast
for number crunching.

Cheap ARM netbooks are probably also on the way. Hmm... if these
succeed maybe we may see the evolution of small desktop ARM jobs...and
maybe followed by bigger badder multicore ARMS with a lot of grunt.
Hah, wishful thinking eh? Knowing ARM, probably not...but still they
could try.

IBM sure don't seem to be.

I'm bitterly disappointed at (what I perceive to be) the continued
decline of the powerpc architecture I have to say. But hey, I have a
ps3. It runs linux (for now). And I can mess with it and mess with it
I shall.

> Well, Warren, have a wonderful celebration of the holidays and a most
> splendid New Year!! ?Likewise to all who are here!!!

Likewise, seasons greetings to all!
Cheers

Robert

-- 
chown -R us ./base

From dcenteno at ydl.net  Sat Dec 26 00:12:35 2009
From: dcenteno at ydl.net (Derick Centeno)
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 10:12:35 -0500
Subject: [ydl-gen] Linux yellow dog manual for dummies
In-Reply-To: <1d5b8ec30912250555q47feea15j6809a971bd9b25be@mail.gmail.com>
References: <COL111-W1459CEEE0FA42725AEA47D85820@phx.gbl>
	<20091223102323.6e3a53c7@arakus>
	<1d5b8ec30912231509y8cc1357x6e4681c7c1349c15@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091224152742.24a66470@arakus>
	<C8D1E231-3A71-4B72-93DA-34B9BD921B4C@phys.washington.edu>
	<20091224164454.72f457d5@arakus>
	<1d5b8ec30912250555q47feea15j6809a971bd9b25be@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20091225101235.7edacfa4@arakus>

On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 00:55:12 +1100
Robert Spykerman <robert.spykerman at gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Robert, may you and all here and elsewhere enjoy the upcoming
celebrations and New Year!

I haven't had the time to pursue or discover the article or articles
which Warren referred to.  If I do discover anything along those lines
which approach what he shared, I'll post them in this thread.

Regarding what you posted however despite all the running around about
this "new architecture" you do understand that media people and
engineers paid to do media are rather loose in their definitions of
what they mean by "new" or really anything else -- even their
mathematics find new inventive realities which more often are
explorations of that dimension of imaginary numbers.  Remember that
universe of estimations and calculations affected by and related to the
square root of negative one?

The vast production of data generated by media are like that.  It may
be entertaining and many other things but one, no one, should believe
or accept the production at face value, no matter what it is or who
produces it.

The "new" thing which you should have noted from Plug Computer is what
the name tells you itself.  They are merely propagating what is old as
new; the "new" thing is the redesign of ARM technology so that it does
new functions at low energy costs -- which is truly a good thing.  But
this is as I shared elsewhere no more interesting that bending a paper
clip in a new way.  There are more uses for utilizing such a clip bent
in that new manner, but it is and remains just a paper clip -- Plug
Computer's "new" thingy is no more than that.

Here's one page which almost approaches the essence of the truth
regarding what they actually are doing -- read between the words and
the lines and you'll discover for yourself that there is a lot less to
their efforts than the hoopla they are creating around it.

Here's the link:  http://www.marvell.com/technologies/cputech.jsp

Now I've got to run lest my relatives proceed to engage upon my demise
in creative ways I would not be able to foresee.

Happy Holidays!!

> On Fri, Dec 25, 2009 at 8:44 AM, Derick Centeno <dcenteno at ydl.net>
> wrote:
> 
> > I wasn't aware of IBM's announcement. ?I guess we are the lucky ones
> > who got these marvelous computers while they could be had. ?Too bad
> > others won't have the opportunity to explore and develop varied
> > programming skills which these systems allow.
> 
> I went down to the local EB the other day hoping the fat ps3s (be they
> second hand or old stock) would be significantly cheaper with the
> express notion of purchasing another....  Alas... not :(
> 
> But hmm... there are a few interesting cheap-ish options. Been
> thinking of looking into these Sheeva thingies... ie
> http://www.plugcomputer.org/
> 
> No particular reason. Just because they exist and are not x86's -
> Thank heavens they did not put atoms in them - I think one would make
> a really nice home server with low energy costs,  but it won't be fast
> for number crunching.
> 
> Cheap ARM netbooks are probably also on the way. Hmm... if these
> succeed maybe we may see the evolution of small desktop ARM jobs...and
> maybe followed by bigger badder multicore ARMS with a lot of grunt.
> Hah, wishful thinking eh? Knowing ARM, probably not...but still they
> could try.
> 
> IBM sure don't seem to be.
> 
> I'm bitterly disappointed at (what I perceive to be) the continued
> decline of the powerpc architecture I have to say. But hey, I have a
> ps3. It runs linux (for now). And I can mess with it and mess with it
> I shall.
> 
> > Well, Warren, have a wonderful celebration of the holidays and a
> > most splendid New Year!! ?Likewise to all who are here!!!
> 
> Likewise, seasons greetings to all!
> Cheers
> 
> Robert
> 



=========

Refranes/Popular sayings:
The Taino say:No hay mal que por bien no venga.
There is no evil out of which good cannot blossom.
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From warren at phys.washington.edu  Sat Dec 26 04:37:34 2009
From: warren at phys.washington.edu (Warren Nagourney)
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 11:37:34 -0800
Subject: [ydl-gen] Linux yellow dog manual for dummies
In-Reply-To: <20091224172801.33b9abc5@arakus>
References: <COL111-W1459CEEE0FA42725AEA47D85820@phx.gbl>
	<20091223102323.6e3a53c7@arakus>
	<1d5b8ec30912231509y8cc1357x6e4681c7c1349c15@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091224152742.24a66470@arakus>
	<C8D1E231-3A71-4B72-93DA-34B9BD921B4C@phys.washington.edu>
	<20091224164454.72f457d5@arakus>
	<657756DA-2EE3-4049-9BD3-D24346F30AC4@phys.washington.edu>
	<20091224172801.33b9abc5@arakus>
Message-ID: <70B6D0A8-E8AE-49F4-BCAE-20A2D0283721@phys.washington.edu>

Thanks, Derick.

Although this is a YDL forum, I am afraid to say that there is no  
comparison between any linux on PPC and OS X. The former simply  
doesn't have the software base that I need. I used to think that it  
would be faster than OS X, but after a few installations of linux on  
Apple computers, I discovered that OS X wins hands down in the speed  
area as well. I think that linux is optimized for x86 and of course  
things like flash are only available on x86 linux (I hate flash, but  
it unfortunately has become a standard for internet video). There are  
still some PPC optimizations in OS X apps and maybe even some Altivec  
usage (which allows Quicktime to smoothly run at 1080p on my PPC  
machines). The tasks involved in writing my book would have been  
enormously greater if I had used linux instead of OS X.

I notice an increasing dominance of ARM in low power portable devices.  
This is unfortunate, since ARM simply doesn't have the computational  
power that PPC has - I am not sure it even has a floating point data  
type. It is too bad that IBM did such a poor job of promoting PPC; we  
will need to reinvent the wheel with ARM when we could have had  
advanced multi-purpose chips with low power consumption from the PPC  
manufacturers (such as PA semi, which Apple bought and converted to  
ARM).

Anyway, the improvement in the performance of Apple products since the  
switch has been less than stellar, much less than expected from  
Moore's law. My 4 year old G5 has a 1.15 GHz memory bus and an 16x  
dual layer superdrive, which is very competitive with the best that  
Apple can come up with now (for reasonable prices). It cost much less  
than a current machine and doesn't require a several thousand dollar  
investment in software, which I would need to make if I use one of  
Apple's intel superboxes.

Cheers,

Warren Nagourney

On Dec 24, 2009, at 2:28 PM, Derick Centeno wrote:

> You may want to know that you may find decent parts for your system
> from http://macsales.com/
>
> I think we may have to really keep our PowerPC running for longer than
> that although I did hear of someone developing a multicore PowerPC
> laptop a month or so ago.  I've got to search for who this fellow is
> again as I lost track, but I did hear of a fellow who created a  
> working
> Cell based laptop which ran the GameOS and had the OtherOS option.
> Pretty neat!
>
> Caveat:  If you replace the power supply or other support parts you
> shouldn't have trouble running YDL from it.  Be careful regarding  
> other
> components however such as DVD drives: if those go it may be wiser to
> consider an external DVD drive in that situation.  I'm unsure if  
> anyone
> we knew remains at Fixstars from TSS; it may not be so easy to get the
> kind of support we became accustomed to.  In any case, I'd advise you
> to consider reviewing what notations remain regarding their advisories
> regarding which hardware works with YDL and which do not.  As best I
> recall, the past emphasis (by TSS) was to support original Apple  
> parts.
>
> So the problems to watch for may not be RAM as much as internal
> associated devices, such as a newer hard drive or modem or something
> similar.  It may be better to just get an HD which resides on a PCI
> card which your system should recognize with no problem as an external
> system; I don't think such a drive would be able to be booted from
> within YDL.  It would be interesting to try that out as a concept
> though.
>
> Anyway enjoy and all the best!!
>
> On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 13:57:49 -0800
> Warren Nagourney <warren at phys.washington.edu> wrote:
>
>> Thanks, Derick. I  still love the PPC architecture and recently
>> bought an Apple dual core 2.3 GHz G5 for very little money and am
>> finding it to be absolutely as fast as I could ever hope for. I will
>> keep it for the next 3-5 years (assuming I can keep the power supply
>> running) and maybe then, the dominance of x86 may have lessened (it
>> can't last forever!).
>>
>> Merry Christmas and Happy 2010,
>>
>> Warren N
>
>
>
>
> =========
>
> Refranes/Popular sayings:
> The Taino say:No hay mal que por bien no venga.
> There is no evil out of which good cannot blossom.
> _______________________________________________
> yellowdog-general mailing list - yellowdog-general at lists.fixstars.com
> Unsuscribe info: http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general
> HINT: to Google archives, try  '&lt;keywords> site:us.fixstars.com'


From rarob at travelinglightfarm.net  Sun Dec 27 01:09:43 2009
From: rarob at travelinglightfarm.net (Rob Sanders)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 11:09:43 -0500
Subject: [ydl-gen] Linux yellow dog manual for dummies
In-Reply-To: <70B6D0A8-E8AE-49F4-BCAE-20A2D0283721@phys.washington.edu>
References: <COL111-W1459CEEE0FA42725AEA47D85820@phx.gbl>
	<20091223102323.6e3a53c7@arakus>
	<1d5b8ec30912231509y8cc1357x6e4681c7c1349c15@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091224152742.24a66470@arakus>
	<C8D1E231-3A71-4B72-93DA-34B9BD921B4C@phys.washington.edu>
	<20091224164454.72f457d5@arakus>
	<657756DA-2EE3-4049-9BD3-D24346F30AC4@phys.washington.edu>
	<20091224172801.33b9abc5@arakus>
	<70B6D0A8-E8AE-49F4-BCAE-20A2D0283721@phys.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <3AAADF8F-375F-413D-B670-CD5583C8C5ED@travelinglightfarm.net>

I haven't done much with YDL in some time as I've changed jobs, but  
I'd just like to chime in that several years ago that the PPC Linux's  
( YDL for Mac, full RedHat/SuSE on some IBM OpenPower720 hardware)  
was running rings around the equivalent x86 -or- Alpha based  
platforms we were doing some work on.  Tried to get my bosses &  
customers more interested in it and hit the wall of 'but it isn't  
x86'.  <sigh>.  At the time, a direct comparison of the *same* base  
code on a Mac XServe G5 running on YDL4 vice OS X 10.3 had the YDL  
code twice as fast as the OS X code.  Lots of double precision  
floating point math, and multiple processes (not threads)  
communicating via shared memory.  We would routinely max out any box  
we were running on.

-Rob

On Dec 25, 2009, at 2:37 PM, Warren Nagourney wrote:

> Thanks, Derick.
>
> Although this is a YDL forum, I am afraid to say that there is no  
> comparison between any linux on PPC and OS X. The former simply  
> doesn't have the software base that I need. I used to think that it  
> would be faster than OS X, but after a few installations of linux  
> on Apple computers, I discovered that OS X wins hands down in the  
> speed area as well. I think that linux is optimized for x86 and of  
> course things like flash are only available on x86 linux (I hate  
> flash, but it unfortunately has become a standard for internet  
> video). There are still some PPC optimizations in OS X apps and  
> maybe even some Altivec usage (which allows Quicktime to smoothly  
> run at 1080p on my PPC machines). The tasks involved in writing my  
> book would have been enormously greater if I had used linux instead  
> of OS X.
>
> I notice an increasing dominance of ARM in low power portable  
> devices. This is unfortunate, since ARM simply doesn't have the  
> computational power that PPC has - I am not sure it even has a  
> floating point data type. It is too bad that IBM did such a poor  
> job of promoting PPC; we will need to reinvent the wheel with ARM  
> when we could have had advanced multi-purpose chips with low power  
> consumption from the PPC manufacturers (such as PA semi, which  
> Apple bought and converted to ARM).
>
> Anyway, the improvement in the performance of Apple products since  
> the switch has been less than stellar, much less than expected from  
> Moore's law. My 4 year old G5 has a 1.15 GHz memory bus and an 16x  
> dual layer superdrive, which is very competitive with the best that  
> Apple can come up with now (for reasonable prices). It cost much  
> less than a current machine and doesn't require a several thousand  
> dollar investment in software, which I would need to make if I use  
> one of Apple's intel superboxes.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Warren Nagourney
>
> On Dec 24, 2009, at 2:28 PM, Derick Centeno wrote:
>
>> You may want to know that you may find decent parts for your system
>> from http://macsales.com/
>>
>> I think we may have to really keep our PowerPC running for longer  
>> than
>> that although I did hear of someone developing a multicore PowerPC
>> laptop a month or so ago.  I've got to search for who this fellow is
>> again as I lost track, but I did hear of a fellow who created a  
>> working
>> Cell based laptop which ran the GameOS and had the OtherOS option.
>> Pretty neat!
>>
>> Caveat:  If you replace the power supply or other support parts you
>> shouldn't have trouble running YDL from it.  Be careful regarding  
>> other
>> components however such as DVD drives: if those go it may be wiser to
>> consider an external DVD drive in that situation.  I'm unsure if  
>> anyone
>> we knew remains at Fixstars from TSS; it may not be so easy to get  
>> the
>> kind of support we became accustomed to.  In any case, I'd advise you
>> to consider reviewing what notations remain regarding their  
>> advisories
>> regarding which hardware works with YDL and which do not.  As best I
>> recall, the past emphasis (by TSS) was to support original Apple  
>> parts.
>>
>> So the problems to watch for may not be RAM as much as internal
>> associated devices, such as a newer hard drive or modem or something
>> similar.  It may be better to just get an HD which resides on a PCI
>> card which your system should recognize with no problem as an  
>> external
>> system; I don't think such a drive would be able to be booted from
>> within YDL.  It would be interesting to try that out as a concept
>> though.
>>
>> Anyway enjoy and all the best!!
>>
>> On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 13:57:49 -0800
>> Warren Nagourney <warren at phys.washington.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks, Derick. I  still love the PPC architecture and recently
>>> bought an Apple dual core 2.3 GHz G5 for very little money and am
>>> finding it to be absolutely as fast as I could ever hope for. I will
>>> keep it for the next 3-5 years (assuming I can keep the power supply
>>> running) and maybe then, the dominance of x86 may have lessened (it
>>> can't last forever!).
>>>
>>> Merry Christmas and Happy 2010,
>>>
>>> Warren N
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> =========
>>
>> Refranes/Popular sayings:
>> The Taino say:No hay mal que por bien no venga.
>> There is no evil out of which good cannot blossom.
>> _______________________________________________
>> yellowdog-general mailing list - yellowdog-general at lists.fixstars.com
>> Unsuscribe info: http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/ 
>> yellowdog-general
>> HINT: to Google archives, try  '&lt;keywords> site:us.fixstars.com'
>
> _______________________________________________
> yellowdog-general mailing list - yellowdog-general at lists.fixstars.com
> Unsuscribe info: http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/ 
> yellowdog-general
> HINT: to Google archives, try  '&lt;keywords> site:us.fixstars.com'


From warren at phys.washington.edu  Sun Dec 27 05:00:41 2009
From: warren at phys.washington.edu (Warren Nagourney)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 12:00:41 -0800
Subject: [ydl-gen] Linux yellow dog manual for dummies
In-Reply-To: <3AAADF8F-375F-413D-B670-CD5583C8C5ED@travelinglightfarm.net>
References: <COL111-W1459CEEE0FA42725AEA47D85820@phx.gbl>
	<20091223102323.6e3a53c7@arakus>
	<1d5b8ec30912231509y8cc1357x6e4681c7c1349c15@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091224152742.24a66470@arakus>
	<C8D1E231-3A71-4B72-93DA-34B9BD921B4C@phys.washington.edu>
	<20091224164454.72f457d5@arakus>
	<657756DA-2EE3-4049-9BD3-D24346F30AC4@phys.washington.edu>
	<20091224172801.33b9abc5@arakus>
	<70B6D0A8-E8AE-49F4-BCAE-20A2D0283721@phys.washington.edu>
	<3AAADF8F-375F-413D-B670-CD5583C8C5ED@travelinglightfarm.net>
Message-ID: <5D14EF6B-34F7-411C-AF9D-4F6B3004D7DE@phys.washington.edu>

I think one needs to distinguish between the OS and the CPU. My  
experience with the G5 is that its floating point performance is  
between 1.5x and 2x as fast as the equivalent x86. Unfortunately, the  
fixed point advantages are not there. I use LaTeX a lot and heard that  
the typesetting speed improved on Macs (running OS X) when Apple  
switched to intel (same TeX source - this might me in part a  
reflection on the poorer PPC optimizations in gcc).  The intel  
advantage might be 20% in LaTeX typesetting (this is a single data  
point from a commercial TeX).

On the other hand, the performance of the OS is another matter. Every  
linux I have installed on a Mac (or PS3) was much less responsive than  
OS X for similar operations. This is a combination of things like  
application launching speed and particularly graphics operations,  
which are slow in PPC linux since there are no good PPC drivers for  
video cards in linux.  This is entirely a user interface issue and a  
PPC linux server might do very well compared to the competition (I  
have no experience with this). Of course, the speed of apps which  
don't use graphics should be the same between linux and OS X since  
they both use the same compilers.

Cheers,

Warren Nagourney

On Dec 26, 2009, at 8:09 AM, Rob Sanders wrote:

> I haven't done much with YDL in some time as I've changed jobs, but  
> I'd just like to chime in that several years ago that the PPC  
> Linux's ( YDL for Mac, full RedHat/SuSE on some IBM OpenPower720  
> hardware) was running rings around the equivalent x86 -or- Alpha  
> based platforms we were doing some work on.  Tried to get my bosses  
> & customers more interested in it and hit the wall of 'but it isn't  
> x86'.  <sigh>.  At the time, a direct comparison of the *same* base  
> code on a Mac XServe G5 running on YDL4 vice OS X 10.3 had the YDL  
> code twice as fast as the OS X code.  Lots of double precision  
> floating point math, and multiple processes (not threads)  
> communicating via shared memory.  We would routinely max out any box  
> we were running on.
>
> -Rob
>
> On Dec 25, 2009, at 2:37 PM, Warren Nagourney wrote:
>
>> Thanks, Derick.
>>
>> Although this is a YDL forum, I am afraid to say that there is no  
>> comparison between any linux on PPC and OS X. The former simply  
>> doesn't have the software base that I need. I used to think that it  
>> would be faster than OS X, but after a few installations of linux  
>> on Apple computers, I discovered that OS X wins hands down in the  
>> speed area as well. I think that linux is optimized for x86 and of  
>> course things like flash are only available on x86 linux (I hate  
>> flash, but it unfortunately has become a standard for internet  
>> video). There are still some PPC optimizations in OS X apps and  
>> maybe even some Altivec usage (which allows Quicktime to smoothly  
>> run at 1080p on my PPC machines). The tasks involved in writing my  
>> book would have been enormously greater if I had used linux instead  
>> of OS X.
>>
>> I notice an increasing dominance of ARM in low power portable  
>> devices. This is unfortunate, since ARM simply doesn't have the  
>> computational power that PPC has - I am not sure it even has a  
>> floating point data type. It is too bad that IBM did such a poor  
>> job of promoting PPC; we will need to reinvent the wheel with ARM  
>> when we could have had advanced multi-purpose chips with low power  
>> consumption from the PPC manufacturers (such as PA semi, which  
>> Apple bought and converted to ARM).
>>
>> Anyway, the improvement in the performance of Apple products since  
>> the switch has been less than stellar, much less than expected from  
>> Moore's law. My 4 year old G5 has a 1.15 GHz memory bus and an 16x  
>> dual layer superdrive, which is very competitive with the best that  
>> Apple can come up with now (for reasonable prices). It cost much  
>> less than a current machine and doesn't require a several thousand  
>> dollar investment in software, which I would need to make if I use  
>> one of Apple's intel superboxes.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Warren Nagourney
>>
>> On Dec 24, 2009, at 2:28 PM, Derick Centeno wrote:
>>
>>> You may want to know that you may find decent parts for your system
>>> from http://macsales.com/
>>>
>>> I think we may have to really keep our PowerPC running for longer  
>>> than
>>> that although I did hear of someone developing a multicore PowerPC
>>> laptop a month or so ago.  I've got to search for who this fellow is
>>> again as I lost track, but I did hear of a fellow who created a  
>>> working
>>> Cell based laptop which ran the GameOS and had the OtherOS option.
>>> Pretty neat!
>>>
>>> Caveat:  If you replace the power supply or other support parts you
>>> shouldn't have trouble running YDL from it.  Be careful regarding  
>>> other
>>> components however such as DVD drives: if those go it may be wiser  
>>> to
>>> consider an external DVD drive in that situation.  I'm unsure if  
>>> anyone
>>> we knew remains at Fixstars from TSS; it may not be so easy to get  
>>> the
>>> kind of support we became accustomed to.  In any case, I'd advise  
>>> you
>>> to consider reviewing what notations remain regarding their  
>>> advisories
>>> regarding which hardware works with YDL and which do not.  As best I
>>> recall, the past emphasis (by TSS) was to support original Apple  
>>> parts.
>>>
>>> So the problems to watch for may not be RAM as much as internal
>>> associated devices, such as a newer hard drive or modem or something
>>> similar.  It may be better to just get an HD which resides on a PCI
>>> card which your system should recognize with no problem as an  
>>> external
>>> system; I don't think such a drive would be able to be booted from
>>> within YDL.  It would be interesting to try that out as a concept
>>> though.
>>>
>>> Anyway enjoy and all the best!!
>>>
>>> On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 13:57:49 -0800
>>> Warren Nagourney <warren at phys.washington.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks, Derick. I  still love the PPC architecture and recently
>>>> bought an Apple dual core 2.3 GHz G5 for very little money and am
>>>> finding it to be absolutely as fast as I could ever hope for. I  
>>>> will
>>>> keep it for the next 3-5 years (assuming I can keep the power  
>>>> supply
>>>> running) and maybe then, the dominance of x86 may have lessened (it
>>>> can't last forever!).
>>>>
>>>> Merry Christmas and Happy 2010,
>>>>
>>>> Warren N
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> =========
>>>
>>> Refranes/Popular sayings:
>>> The Taino say:No hay mal que por bien no venga.
>>> There is no evil out of which good cannot blossom.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> yellowdog-general mailing list - yellowdog- 
>>> general at lists.fixstars.com
>>> Unsuscribe info: http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general
>>> HINT: to Google archives, try  '&lt;keywords> site:us.fixstars.com'
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> yellowdog-general mailing list - yellowdog-general at lists.fixstars.com
>> Unsuscribe info: http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general
>> HINT: to Google archives, try  '&lt;keywords> site:us.fixstars.com'
>
> _______________________________________________
> yellowdog-general mailing list - yellowdog-general at lists.fixstars.com
> Unsuscribe info: http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general
> HINT: to Google archives, try  '&lt;keywords> site:us.fixstars.com'


From rarob at travelinglightfarm.net  Sun Dec 27 05:28:27 2009
From: rarob at travelinglightfarm.net (Rob Sanders)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 15:28:27 -0500
Subject: [ydl-gen] Linux yellow dog manual for dummies
In-Reply-To: <5D14EF6B-34F7-411C-AF9D-4F6B3004D7DE@phys.washington.edu>
References: <COL111-W1459CEEE0FA42725AEA47D85820@phx.gbl>
	<20091223102323.6e3a53c7@arakus>
	<1d5b8ec30912231509y8cc1357x6e4681c7c1349c15@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091224152742.24a66470@arakus>
	<C8D1E231-3A71-4B72-93DA-34B9BD921B4C@phys.washington.edu>
	<20091224164454.72f457d5@arakus>
	<657756DA-2EE3-4049-9BD3-D24346F30AC4@phys.washington.edu>
	<20091224172801.33b9abc5@arakus>
	<70B6D0A8-E8AE-49F4-BCAE-20A2D0283721@phys.washington.edu>
	<3AAADF8F-375F-413D-B670-CD5583C8C5ED@travelinglightfarm.net>
	<5D14EF6B-34F7-411C-AF9D-4F6B3004D7DE@phys.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <AF6574E8-AEB2-4EDD-9ACB-093F1967D087@travelinglightfarm.net>

Warren,
   I'd concur.  This application was hugely floating point  
intensive.  Graphics ops were not an issue for us.  The app used only  
low-level X11 calls (no Motif, or Xt calls even), so what graphics  
there were under OSX had to go through Apple's X11 layer before being  
seen.  Most of the testing I had done was using the XServe as the  
compute host, with graphics being redirected to a remote terminal.   
But I still consistently saw about a 2x speed improvement when the  
app ran on YLD 4 vice OSX 10.3.  <sigh>  Many fond memories....

-Rob

On Dec 26, 2009, at 3:00 PM, Warren Nagourney wrote:

> I think one needs to distinguish between the OS and the CPU. My  
> experience with the G5 is that its floating point performance is  
> between 1.5x and 2x as fast as the equivalent x86. Unfortunately,  
> the fixed point advantages are not there. I use LaTeX a lot and  
> heard that the typesetting speed improved on Macs (running OS X)  
> when Apple switched to intel (same TeX source - this might me in  
> part a reflection on the poorer PPC optimizations in gcc).  The  
> intel advantage might be 20% in LaTeX typesetting (this is a single  
> data point from a commercial TeX).
>
> On the other hand, the performance of the OS is another matter.  
> Every linux I have installed on a Mac (or PS3) was much less  
> responsive than OS X for similar operations. This is a combination  
> of things like application launching speed and particularly  
> graphics operations, which are slow in PPC linux since there are no  
> good PPC drivers for video cards in linux.  This is entirely a user  
> interface issue and a PPC linux server might do very well compared  
> to the competition (I have no experience with this). Of course, the  
> speed of apps which don't use graphics should be the same between  
> linux and OS X since they both use the same compilers.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Warren Nagourney
>
> On Dec 26, 2009, at 8:09 AM, Rob Sanders wrote:
>
>> I haven't done much with YDL in some time as I've changed jobs,  
>> but I'd just like to chime in that several years ago that the PPC  
>> Linux's ( YDL for Mac, full RedHat/SuSE on some IBM OpenPower720  
>> hardware) was running rings around the equivalent x86 -or- Alpha  
>> based platforms we were doing some work on.  Tried to get my  
>> bosses & customers more interested in it and hit the wall of 'but  
>> it isn't x86'.  <sigh>.  At the time, a direct comparison of the  
>> *same* base code on a Mac XServe G5 running on YDL4 vice OS X 10.3  
>> had the YDL code twice as fast as the OS X code.  Lots of double  
>> precision floating point math, and multiple processes (not  
>> threads) communicating via shared memory.  We would routinely max  
>> out any box we were running on.
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>> On Dec 25, 2009, at 2:37 PM, Warren Nagourney wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks, Derick.
>>>
>>> Although this is a YDL forum, I am afraid to say that there is no  
>>> comparison between any linux on PPC and OS X. The former simply  
>>> doesn't have the software base that I need. I used to think that  
>>> it would be faster than OS X, but after a few installations of  
>>> linux on Apple computers, I discovered that OS X wins hands down  
>>> in the speed area as well. I think that linux is optimized for  
>>> x86 and of course things like flash are only available on x86  
>>> linux (I hate flash, but it unfortunately has become a standard  
>>> for internet video). There are still some PPC optimizations in OS  
>>> X apps and maybe even some Altivec usage (which allows Quicktime  
>>> to smoothly run at 1080p on my PPC machines). The tasks involved  
>>> in writing my book would have been enormously greater if I had  
>>> used linux instead of OS X.
>>>
>>> I notice an increasing dominance of ARM in low power portable  
>>> devices. This is unfortunate, since ARM simply doesn't have the  
>>> computational power that PPC has - I am not sure it even has a  
>>> floating point data type. It is too bad that IBM did such a poor  
>>> job of promoting PPC; we will need to reinvent the wheel with ARM  
>>> when we could have had advanced multi-purpose chips with low  
>>> power consumption from the PPC manufacturers (such as PA semi,  
>>> which Apple bought and converted to ARM).
>>>
>>> Anyway, the improvement in the performance of Apple products  
>>> since the switch has been less than stellar, much less than  
>>> expected from Moore's law. My 4 year old G5 has a 1.15 GHz memory  
>>> bus and an 16x dual layer superdrive, which is very competitive  
>>> with the best that Apple can come up with now (for reasonable  
>>> prices). It cost much less than a current machine and doesn't  
>>> require a several thousand dollar investment in software, which I  
>>> would need to make if I use one of Apple's intel superboxes.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Warren Nagourney
>>>
>>> On Dec 24, 2009, at 2:28 PM, Derick Centeno wrote:
>>>
>>>> You may want to know that you may find decent parts for your system
>>>> from http://macsales.com/
>>>>
>>>> I think we may have to really keep our PowerPC running for  
>>>> longer than
>>>> that although I did hear of someone developing a multicore PowerPC
>>>> laptop a month or so ago.  I've got to search for who this  
>>>> fellow is
>>>> again as I lost track, but I did hear of a fellow who created a  
>>>> working
>>>> Cell based laptop which ran the GameOS and had the OtherOS option.
>>>> Pretty neat!
>>>>
>>>> Caveat:  If you replace the power supply or other support parts you
>>>> shouldn't have trouble running YDL from it.  Be careful  
>>>> regarding other
>>>> components however such as DVD drives: if those go it may be  
>>>> wiser to
>>>> consider an external DVD drive in that situation.  I'm unsure if  
>>>> anyone
>>>> we knew remains at Fixstars from TSS; it may not be so easy to  
>>>> get the
>>>> kind of support we became accustomed to.  In any case, I'd  
>>>> advise you
>>>> to consider reviewing what notations remain regarding their  
>>>> advisories
>>>> regarding which hardware works with YDL and which do not.  As  
>>>> best I
>>>> recall, the past emphasis (by TSS) was to support original Apple  
>>>> parts.
>>>>
>>>> So the problems to watch for may not be RAM as much as internal
>>>> associated devices, such as a newer hard drive or modem or  
>>>> something
>>>> similar.  It may be better to just get an HD which resides on a PCI
>>>> card which your system should recognize with no problem as an  
>>>> external
>>>> system; I don't think such a drive would be able to be booted from
>>>> within YDL.  It would be interesting to try that out as a concept
>>>> though.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway enjoy and all the best!!
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 13:57:49 -0800
>>>> Warren Nagourney <warren at phys.washington.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks, Derick. I  still love the PPC architecture and recently
>>>>> bought an Apple dual core 2.3 GHz G5 for very little money and am
>>>>> finding it to be absolutely as fast as I could ever hope for. I  
>>>>> will
>>>>> keep it for the next 3-5 years (assuming I can keep the power  
>>>>> supply
>>>>> running) and maybe then, the dominance of x86 may have lessened  
>>>>> (it
>>>>> can't last forever!).
>>>>>
>>>>> Merry Christmas and Happy 2010,
>>>>>
>>>>> Warren N
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =========
>>>>
>>>> Refranes/Popular sayings:
>>>> The Taino say:No hay mal que por bien no venga.
>>>> There is no evil out of which good cannot blossom.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> yellowdog-general mailing list - yellowdog- 
>>>> general at lists.fixstars.com
>>>> Unsuscribe info: http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/ 
>>>> yellowdog-general
>>>> HINT: to Google archives, try  '&lt;keywords> site:us.fixstars.com'
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> yellowdog-general mailing list - yellowdog- 
>>> general at lists.fixstars.com
>>> Unsuscribe info: http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/ 
>>> yellowdog-general
>>> HINT: to Google archives, try  '&lt;keywords> site:us.fixstars.com'
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> yellowdog-general mailing list - yellowdog-general at lists.fixstars.com
>> Unsuscribe info: http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/ 
>> yellowdog-general
>> HINT: to Google archives, try  '&lt;keywords> site:us.fixstars.com'
>
> _______________________________________________
> yellowdog-general mailing list - yellowdog-general at lists.fixstars.com
> Unsuscribe info: http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/ 
> yellowdog-general
> HINT: to Google archives, try  '&lt;keywords> site:us.fixstars.com'


From warren at phys.washington.edu  Sun Dec 27 05:46:22 2009
From: warren at phys.washington.edu (Warren Nagourney)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 12:46:22 -0800
Subject: [ydl-gen] Linux yellow dog manual for dummies
In-Reply-To: <AF6574E8-AEB2-4EDD-9ACB-093F1967D087@travelinglightfarm.net>
References: <COL111-W1459CEEE0FA42725AEA47D85820@phx.gbl>
	<20091223102323.6e3a53c7@arakus>
	<1d5b8ec30912231509y8cc1357x6e4681c7c1349c15@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091224152742.24a66470@arakus>
	<C8D1E231-3A71-4B72-93DA-34B9BD921B4C@phys.washington.edu>
	<20091224164454.72f457d5@arakus>
	<657756DA-2EE3-4049-9BD3-D24346F30AC4@phys.washington.edu>
	<20091224172801.33b9abc5@arakus>
	<70B6D0A8-E8AE-49F4-BCAE-20A2D0283721@phys.washington.edu>
	<3AAADF8F-375F-413D-B670-CD5583C8C5ED@travelinglightfarm.net>
	<5D14EF6B-34F7-411C-AF9D-4F6B3004D7DE@phys.washington.edu>
	<AF6574E8-AEB2-4EDD-9ACB-093F1967D087@travelinglightfarm.net>
Message-ID: <2E4BEDCE-4494-462F-ADF6-78F11BCE16B4@phys.washington.edu>

That's very interesting, Rob. Were the apps compiled using the same  
compilers (with the same degree of optimization) in both cases? Were  
the time differences actual CPU time of just elapsed time?

Apple's scheduler isn't very good and - particularly in Leopard - some  
of their background operations in support of their gimmicky stuff  
(like spotlight, quicklook or "time machine") take up valuable cpu  
time. I have occasionally thought that Apple deliberately gave these  
miserable programs higher priority so that things would run slowly on  
single processor G4 and G5 machines, compared to the multicore x86  
offerings. Leopard's time machine (back up utility) is the worst - it  
brings single core machines to a virtual halt. None of this has been a  
problem in my dual core G5 (but is very noticeable on my Powerbook).

Another difference might be the Mach kernel that OS X uses. This  
hasn't been talked about much, but there was a time when an OS with a  
monolithic kernel allowed things like context switches to take place  
much more quickly. Supposedly, the microkernel has been improved, but  
it is not clear how much.

Cheers,

wn



On Dec 26, 2009, at 12:28 PM, Rob Sanders wrote:

> Warren,
>  I'd concur.  This application was hugely floating point intensive.   
> Graphics ops were not an issue for us.  The app used only low-level  
> X11 calls (no Motif, or Xt calls even), so what graphics there were  
> under OSX had to go through Apple's X11 layer before being seen.   
> Most of the testing I had done was using the XServe as the compute  
> host, with graphics being redirected to a remote terminal.  But I  
> still consistently saw about a 2x speed improvement when the app ran  
> on YLD 4 vice OSX 10.3.  <sigh>  Many fond memories....
>
> -Rob
>
> On Dec 26, 2009, at 3:00 PM, Warren Nagourney wrote:
>
>> I think one needs to distinguish between the OS and the CPU. My  
>> experience with the G5 is that its floating point performance is  
>> between 1.5x and 2x as fast as the equivalent x86. Unfortunately,  
>> the fixed point advantages are not there. I use LaTeX a lot and  
>> heard that the typesetting speed improved on Macs (running OS X)  
>> when Apple switched to intel (same TeX source - this might me in  
>> part a reflection on the poorer PPC optimizations in gcc).  The  
>> intel advantage might be 20% in LaTeX typesetting (this is a single  
>> data point from a commercial TeX).
>>
>> On the other hand, the performance of the OS is another matter.  
>> Every linux I have installed on a Mac (or PS3) was much less  
>> responsive than OS X for similar operations. This is a combination  
>> of things like application launching speed and particularly  
>> graphics operations, which are slow in PPC linux since there are no  
>> good PPC drivers for video cards in linux.  This is entirely a user  
>> interface issue and a PPC linux server might do very well compared  
>> to the competition (I have no experience with this). Of course, the  
>> speed of apps which don't use graphics should be the same between  
>> linux and OS X since they both use the same compilers.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Warren Nagourney
>>
>> On Dec 26, 2009, at 8:09 AM, Rob Sanders wrote:
>>
>>> I haven't done much with YDL in some time as I've changed jobs,  
>>> but I'd just like to chime in that several years ago that the PPC  
>>> Linux's ( YDL for Mac, full RedHat/SuSE on some IBM OpenPower720  
>>> hardware) was running rings around the equivalent x86 -or- Alpha  
>>> based platforms we were doing some work on.  Tried to get my  
>>> bosses & customers more interested in it and hit the wall of 'but  
>>> it isn't x86'.  <sigh>.  At the time, a direct comparison of the  
>>> *same* base code on a Mac XServe G5 running on YDL4 vice OS X 10.3  
>>> had the YDL code twice as fast as the OS X code.  Lots of double  
>>> precision floating point math, and multiple processes (not  
>>> threads) communicating via shared memory.  We would routinely max  
>>> out any box we were running on.
>>>
>>> -Rob
>>>
>>> On Dec 25, 2009, at 2:37 PM, Warren Nagourney wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks, Derick.
>>>>
>>>> Although this is a YDL forum, I am afraid to say that there is no  
>>>> comparison between any linux on PPC and OS X. The former simply  
>>>> doesn't have the software base that I need. I used to think that  
>>>> it would be faster than OS X, but after a few installations of  
>>>> linux on Apple computers, I discovered that OS X wins hands down  
>>>> in the speed area as well. I think that linux is optimized for  
>>>> x86 and of course things like flash are only available on x86  
>>>> linux (I hate flash, but it unfortunately has become a standard  
>>>> for internet video). There are still some PPC optimizations in OS  
>>>> X apps and maybe even some Altivec usage (which allows Quicktime  
>>>> to smoothly run at 1080p on my PPC machines). The tasks involved  
>>>> in writing my book would have been enormously greater if I had  
>>>> used linux instead of OS X.
>>>>
>>>> I notice an increasing dominance of ARM in low power portable  
>>>> devices. This is unfortunate, since ARM simply doesn't have the  
>>>> computational power that PPC has - I am not sure it even has a  
>>>> floating point data type. It is too bad that IBM did such a poor  
>>>> job of promoting PPC; we will need to reinvent the wheel with ARM  
>>>> when we could have had advanced multi-purpose chips with low  
>>>> power consumption from the PPC manufacturers (such as PA semi,  
>>>> which Apple bought and converted to ARM).
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, the improvement in the performance of Apple products  
>>>> since the switch has been less than stellar, much less than  
>>>> expected from Moore's law. My 4 year old G5 has a 1.15 GHz memory  
>>>> bus and an 16x dual layer superdrive, which is very competitive  
>>>> with the best that Apple can come up with now (for reasonable  
>>>> prices). It cost much less than a current machine and doesn't  
>>>> require a several thousand dollar investment in software, which I  
>>>> would need to make if I use one of Apple's intel superboxes.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Warren Nagourney
>>>>
>>>> On Dec 24, 2009, at 2:28 PM, Derick Centeno wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You may want to know that you may find decent parts for your  
>>>>> system
>>>>> from http://macsales.com/
>>>>>
>>>>> I think we may have to really keep our PowerPC running for  
>>>>> longer than
>>>>> that although I did hear of someone developing a multicore PowerPC
>>>>> laptop a month or so ago.  I've got to search for who this  
>>>>> fellow is
>>>>> again as I lost track, but I did hear of a fellow who created a  
>>>>> working
>>>>> Cell based laptop which ran the GameOS and had the OtherOS option.
>>>>> Pretty neat!
>>>>>
>>>>> Caveat:  If you replace the power supply or other support parts  
>>>>> you
>>>>> shouldn't have trouble running YDL from it.  Be careful  
>>>>> regarding other
>>>>> components however such as DVD drives: if those go it may be  
>>>>> wiser to
>>>>> consider an external DVD drive in that situation.  I'm unsure if  
>>>>> anyone
>>>>> we knew remains at Fixstars from TSS; it may not be so easy to  
>>>>> get the
>>>>> kind of support we became accustomed to.  In any case, I'd  
>>>>> advise you
>>>>> to consider reviewing what notations remain regarding their  
>>>>> advisories
>>>>> regarding which hardware works with YDL and which do not.  As  
>>>>> best I
>>>>> recall, the past emphasis (by TSS) was to support original Apple  
>>>>> parts.
>>>>>
>>>>> So the problems to watch for may not be RAM as much as internal
>>>>> associated devices, such as a newer hard drive or modem or  
>>>>> something
>>>>> similar.  It may be better to just get an HD which resides on a  
>>>>> PCI
>>>>> card which your system should recognize with no problem as an  
>>>>> external
>>>>> system; I don't think such a drive would be able to be booted from
>>>>> within YDL.  It would be interesting to try that out as a concept
>>>>> though.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway enjoy and all the best!!
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 13:57:49 -0800
>>>>> Warren Nagourney <warren at phys.washington.edu> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks, Derick. I  still love the PPC architecture and recently
>>>>>> bought an Apple dual core 2.3 GHz G5 for very little money and am
>>>>>> finding it to be absolutely as fast as I could ever hope for. I  
>>>>>> will
>>>>>> keep it for the next 3-5 years (assuming I can keep the power  
>>>>>> supply
>>>>>> running) and maybe then, the dominance of x86 may have lessened  
>>>>>> (it
>>>>>> can't last forever!).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Merry Christmas and Happy 2010,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Warren N
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> =========
>>>>>
>>>>> Refranes/Popular sayings:
>>>>> The Taino say:No hay mal que por bien no venga.
>>>>> There is no evil out of which good cannot blossom.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> yellowdog-general mailing list - yellowdog-general at lists.fixstars.com
>>>>> Unsuscribe info: http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general
>>>>> HINT: to Google archives, try  '&lt;keywords>  
>>>>> site:us.fixstars.com'
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> yellowdog-general mailing list - yellowdog-general at lists.fixstars.com
>>>> Unsuscribe info: http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general
>>>> HINT: to Google archives, try  '&lt;keywords> site:us.fixstars.com'
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> yellowdog-general mailing list - yellowdog- 
>>> general at lists.fixstars.com
>>> Unsuscribe info: http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general
>>> HINT: to Google archives, try  '&lt;keywords> site:us.fixstars.com'
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> yellowdog-general mailing list - yellowdog-general at lists.fixstars.com
>> Unsuscribe info: http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general
>> HINT: to Google archives, try  '&lt;keywords> site:us.fixstars.com'
>
> _______________________________________________
> yellowdog-general mailing list - yellowdog-general at lists.fixstars.com
> Unsuscribe info: http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general
> HINT: to Google archives, try  '&lt;keywords> site:us.fixstars.com'


From dcenteno at ydl.net  Sun Dec 27 06:34:23 2009
From: dcenteno at ydl.net (Derick Centeno)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 16:34:23 -0500
Subject: [ydl-gen] Linux yellow dog manual for dummies
In-Reply-To: <70B6D0A8-E8AE-49F4-BCAE-20A2D0283721@phys.washington.edu>
References: <COL111-W1459CEEE0FA42725AEA47D85820@phx.gbl>
	<20091223102323.6e3a53c7@arakus>
	<1d5b8ec30912231509y8cc1357x6e4681c7c1349c15@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091224152742.24a66470@arakus>
	<C8D1E231-3A71-4B72-93DA-34B9BD921B4C@phys.washington.edu>
	<20091224164454.72f457d5@arakus>
	<657756DA-2EE3-4049-9BD3-D24346F30AC4@phys.washington.edu>
	<20091224172801.33b9abc5@arakus>
	<70B6D0A8-E8AE-49F4-BCAE-20A2D0283721@phys.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <20091226163423.33cc468c@arakus>

On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 11:37:34 -0800
Warren Nagourney <warren at phys.washington.edu> wrote:

> Thanks, Derick.
> 
> Although this is a YDL forum, I am afraid to say that there is no  
> comparison between any linux on PPC and OS X. The former simply  
> doesn't have the software base that I need. I used to think that it  
> would be faster than OS X, but after a few installations of linux on  
> Apple computers, I discovered that OS X wins hands down in the speed  
> area as well. I think that linux is optimized for x86 and of course  
> things like flash are only available on x86 linux (I hate flash, but  
> it unfortunately has become a standard for internet video). There
> are still some PPC optimizations in OS X apps and maybe even some
> Altivec usage (which allows Quicktime to smoothly run at 1080p on my
> PPC machines). The tasks involved in writing my book would have been  
> enormously greater if I had used linux instead of OS X.

Prior to my relationship with TSS, I tried my hand at being an Apple
developer.   Every course Apple offered (beyond the one free
introduction in programming for the Mac) were expensive. Beyond that 
you had to complete specialized seminar training at the
Apple Campus at Cupertino!! Add to that costs for travel, hotels and
accommodations, etc an individual developer like myself could not do
that. Corporations and Universities with deep budgets however are
another matter.

Within YDL however I could write and create things which ran and
explore my own technical interests occasionally sharing them as open
source projects which may or may not have interested others -- without
it costing blood money, mainly mine.

There are entertaining applications for OS X, however if you really
get into the source of how Apple did things then and does things still,
and requires that they be done, nearly any careful programmer would see
"spaghetti" code -- meaning inexplicable layers between the executing
program within Apple's operating system and how that program must
function to implement hooks into established and approved Apple tools.  

This is really the secret reason why you see no improvement in
efficiency between your version of the Mac OS and the current or recent
versions of Mac OS. The spaghetti has gotten "longer" and there aren't
enough cores or processing speed to "eat" or process it all.

The TSS team avoided the spaghetti method of programming implemented by
Microsoft and Apple.  YDL and other TSS products are faster because all
that junk -- that spaghetti -- doesn't exist.

Although nearly everyone wants to have the functionality without the
spaghetti, it isn't easy to do as Apple and Microsoft have proven by
regularly losing their products into baffling code which not only
wastes computer cycles, but also costs consumers money by costing time.
Straightforward and intentionally well designed programming helps any
processor, but with all that junk removed PowerPC systems running YDL
have no peer -- period. 

Consider also that it is rather sad that even all the work Apple has
done, in professional settings where operating systems are tested
yearly for efficient processing and security -- Linux comes in First,
Windows comes second and the Mac sometimes doesn't come in third place
because other operating systems are stronger.  These tests have
been going on for at least 10+ years!!  No Apple operating system
has ever achieved second place!!  Allow me to be clear about this, there
is no point on working on any computer whose data can be compromised via
theft by breeches in wireless or other network, or system access
vulnerabilities. Why would anyone risk it? Yet people do all the time
because they are lulled into forgetting how vulnerable their data is as
well as intentionally misdirected regarding how strong the operating
system they choose to use actually is regarding protecting their
personal and business work.  You would think that many would understand
by this date the threat of theft of their work and their personal and
work related identities, but no.  

That however is a whole different problem.  In consideration of
the talent which was at Apple or Microsoft, they could and should have
done much, much better. 

Spaghetti is fine for humans to consume as an enjoyable meal together
with meat balls, sauces, etc. -- it is not intended for processors which
would have to follow Moore's Law advanced infinitely every microsecond
to successfully digest all the spaghetti humans can generate just by
sheer imagination.


=========

Refranes/Popular sayings:
The Taino say:No hay mal que por bien no venga.
There is no evil out of which good cannot blossom.
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From dcenteno at ydl.net  Sun Dec 27 21:01:02 2009
From: dcenteno at ydl.net (Derick Centeno)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 07:01:02 -0500
Subject: [ydl-gen] Linux yellow dog manual for dummies
In-Reply-To: <C8D1E231-3A71-4B72-93DA-34B9BD921B4C@phys.washington.edu>
References: <COL111-W1459CEEE0FA42725AEA47D85820@phx.gbl>
	<20091223102323.6e3a53c7@arakus>
	<1d5b8ec30912231509y8cc1357x6e4681c7c1349c15@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091224152742.24a66470@arakus>
	<C8D1E231-3A71-4B72-93DA-34B9BD921B4C@phys.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <20091227070102.268195f9@arakus>

I found an article discussing IBM's decision to cancel the Cell which
I'm posting for others here. I'm satisfied it comes close enough to what
he described.  Here's that article:
http://arstechnica.com/hardware/news/2009/11/end-of-the-line-for-ibms-cell.ars

On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 12:46:10 -0800
Warren Nagourney <warren at phys.washington.edu> wrote:

> I might also add that, due to recent announcements from IBM, the  
> future of the Cell processor is in doubt. In November, IBM announced  
> ...


=========

Refranes/Popular sayings:
The Taino say:No hay mal que por bien no venga.
There is no evil out of which good cannot blossom.
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From dcenteno at ydl.net  Mon Dec 28 01:23:53 2009
From: dcenteno at ydl.net (Derick Centeno)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 11:23:53 -0500
Subject: [ydl-gen] Linux yellow dog manual for dummies
In-Reply-To: <2E4BEDCE-4494-462F-ADF6-78F11BCE16B4@phys.washington.edu>
References: <COL111-W1459CEEE0FA42725AEA47D85820@phx.gbl>
	<20091223102323.6e3a53c7@arakus>
	<1d5b8ec30912231509y8cc1357x6e4681c7c1349c15@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091224152742.24a66470@arakus>
	<C8D1E231-3A71-4B72-93DA-34B9BD921B4C@phys.washington.edu>
	<20091224164454.72f457d5@arakus>
	<657756DA-2EE3-4049-9BD3-D24346F30AC4@phys.washington.edu>
	<20091224172801.33b9abc5@arakus>
	<70B6D0A8-E8AE-49F4-BCAE-20A2D0283721@phys.washington.edu>
	<3AAADF8F-375F-413D-B670-CD5583C8C5ED@travelinglightfarm.net>
	<5D14EF6B-34F7-411C-AF9D-4F6B3004D7DE@phys.washington.edu>
	<AF6574E8-AEB2-4EDD-9ACB-093F1967D087@travelinglightfarm.net>
	<2E4BEDCE-4494-462F-ADF6-78F11BCE16B4@phys.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <20091227112353.05a5cf3b@arakus>

I thought you, Rob and interested others would find this article
interesting as it follows along the lines of what you stated earlier
with some different details.  

First the article:
http://arstechnica.com/hardware/news/2009/11/end-of-the-line-for-ibms-cell.ars

You'll note that future development and computers (including laptops -
Yippee!) will follow along an integrated or morphed design path which
implements both AMD/Intel with Cell/PowerPC aspects of handling complex
processing.  This could well mean systems which look more like the
system which is within the Toshiba Qosimo (referring to what Toshiba
calls it's SPEC engine).

I recall discussing details regarding how the Cell's technology was
morphed into the SPEC engine with some astute people at the YDL Board
awhile ago.  IBM's decision therefore kills the Cell as Cell, but not
what was derived by learning and working with it.

It is interesting that this movement forward comprises methods
previously exclusive to disparate architecture families (Intel v.
PowerPC); everything running today will need to be rewritten for those
newer systems as they will be unlike what has come before. This also
means something rather challenging which I hinted at previously, the
skills needed to program the new systems will require people familiar
programming for PowerPC/Cell and Intel systems.  A skill which remains
rare and becoming rarer still.  However those skills are transferable
and advantageous in leaping forward into seriously working with this new
hybrid.  The new hybrid will be further advanced than the system
within the Qosimo. 

As the hardware moving forward has changed so must Linux and commercial
operating systems.  YDL won't remain what it is; it will have to morph
into something else to meet what is coming.  That choice, if any is
made, is up to Fixstars.  I hope that they choose well so that they are
right in the thick of it.

The best to all...

On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 12:46:22 -0800
Warren Nagourney <warren at phys.washington.edu> wrote:

> That's very interesting, Rob. Were the apps compiled using the same  
> compilers (with the same degree of optimization) in both cases? Were  
> the time differences actual CPU time of just elapsed time? ...
> 


=========

Refranes/Popular sayings:
The Taino say:No hay mal que por bien no venga.
There is no evil out of which good cannot blossom.
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From rarob at travelinglightfarm.net  Mon Dec 28 04:20:18 2009
From: rarob at travelinglightfarm.net (Rob Sanders)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 14:20:18 -0500
Subject: [ydl-gen] Linux yellow dog manual for dummies
In-Reply-To: <20091227112353.05a5cf3b@arakus>
References: <COL111-W1459CEEE0FA42725AEA47D85820@phx.gbl>
	<20091223102323.6e3a53c7@arakus>
	<1d5b8ec30912231509y8cc1357x6e4681c7c1349c15@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091224152742.24a66470@arakus>
	<C8D1E231-3A71-4B72-93DA-34B9BD921B4C@phys.washington.edu>
	<20091224164454.72f457d5@arakus>
	<657756DA-2EE3-4049-9BD3-D24346F30AC4@phys.washington.edu>
	<20091224172801.33b9abc5@arakus>
	<70B6D0A8-E8AE-49F4-BCAE-20A2D0283721@phys.washington.edu>
	<3AAADF8F-375F-413D-B670-CD5583C8C5ED@travelinglightfarm.net>
	<5D14EF6B-34F7-411C-AF9D-4F6B3004D7DE@phys.washington.edu>
	<AF6574E8-AEB2-4EDD-9ACB-093F1967D087@travelinglightfarm.net>
	<2E4BEDCE-4494-462F-ADF6-78F11BCE16B4@phys.washington.edu>
	<20091227112353.05a5cf3b@arakus>
Message-ID: <CB447246-DBA1-47AA-AF3E-123269DDFC35@travelinglightfarm.net>

It is an interesting article, and reminds me of some discussions I've  
had with 'younger'
programmers at work.  One of my coworkers is an absolutely awesome  
web developer, using
the newer frameworks (Groovy on Grails) to develop from scratch a  
replacement GUI for out
linux security tools (commercial plug - www.trustedcs.com/ 
securityblanket) in 8 months, having
no previous experience with the product.  Seeing what he has been  
able to do using the right
tools has been amazing.  He enjoys the whole meta-programming way of  
doing things.  But when
I've discussed some of the things I've done (some cell code, device  
driver work, cross-platform porting,
C/C++/Fortran, bit level manipulation, etc) he honestly confesses  
that he is baffled and lost trying to
do those things.  They just aren't taught much it seems.

I've also been amused that several of the programming tricks  
*required* in cell based work were things
I did 'back in the day' trying to get every cycle I could beg,  
borrow, or steal out of my old Apple II+.  When
a no-op costs two clock cycles, you learn to count every one of  
them.  Anyone else remember the extra
16 K of memory (or there abouts) you could get by bank-switching the  
language card?  Or programming
overlays?  Manually figuring out how to bit pack you data so you  
would actually be able to fit everthing
into your limited memory space?  Again, skills that (outside of the  
embedded world perhaps) just aren't
taught much anymore.  <sigh>  I'm not saying that everyone needs to  
be able to demonstrate mastery
of these skills, but I am a *firm* believer that the concepts should  
be taught and coded at least once,
if only so the developing code can understand what the wiz-bang  
compiler is doing on their behalf.

Ok, I will now step down from one of my many soapboxes.....

-Rob

On Dec 27, 2009, at 11:23 AM, Derick Centeno wrote:

> I thought you, Rob and interested others would find this article
> interesting as it follows along the lines of what you stated earlier
> with some different details.
>
> First the article:
> http://arstechnica.com/hardware/news/2009/11/end-of-the-line-for- 
> ibms-cell.ars
>
> You'll note that future development and computers (including laptops -
> Yippee!) will follow along an integrated or morphed design path which
> implements both AMD/Intel with Cell/PowerPC aspects of handling  
> complex
> processing.  This could well mean systems which look more like the
> system which is within the Toshiba Qosimo (referring to what Toshiba
> calls it's SPEC engine).
>
> I recall discussing details regarding how the Cell's technology was
> morphed into the SPEC engine with some astute people at the YDL Board
> awhile ago.  IBM's decision therefore kills the Cell as Cell, but not
> what was derived by learning and working with it.
>
> It is interesting that this movement forward comprises methods
> previously exclusive to disparate architecture families (Intel v.
> PowerPC); everything running today will need to be rewritten for those
> newer systems as they will be unlike what has come before. This also
> means something rather challenging which I hinted at previously, the
> skills needed to program the new systems will require people familiar
> programming for PowerPC/Cell and Intel systems.  A skill which remains
> rare and becoming rarer still.  However those skills are transferable
> and advantageous in leaping forward into seriously working with  
> this new
> hybrid.  The new hybrid will be further advanced than the system
> within the Qosimo.
>
> As the hardware moving forward has changed so must Linux and  
> commercial
> operating systems.  YDL won't remain what it is; it will have to morph
> into something else to meet what is coming.  That choice, if any is
> made, is up to Fixstars.  I hope that they choose well so that they  
> are
> right in the thick of it.
>
> The best to all...
>
> On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 12:46:22 -0800
> Warren Nagourney <warren at phys.washington.edu> wrote:
>
>> That's very interesting, Rob. Were the apps compiled using the same
>> compilers (with the same degree of optimization) in both cases? Were
>> the time differences actual CPU time of just elapsed time? ...
>>
>
>
> =========
>
> Refranes/Popular sayings:
> The Taino say:No hay mal que por bien no venga.
> There is no evil out of which good cannot blossom.
> _______________________________________________
> yellowdog-general mailing list - yellowdog-general at lists.fixstars.com
> Unsuscribe info: http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/ 
> yellowdog-general
> HINT: to Google archives, try  '&lt;keywords> site:us.fixstars.com'


From dcenteno at ydl.net  Mon Dec 28 18:50:57 2009
From: dcenteno at ydl.net (Derick Centeno)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 04:50:57 -0500
Subject: [ydl-gen] Linux yellow dog manual for dummies
In-Reply-To: <CB447246-DBA1-47AA-AF3E-123269DDFC35@travelinglightfarm.net>
References: <COL111-W1459CEEE0FA42725AEA47D85820@phx.gbl>
	<20091223102323.6e3a53c7@arakus>
	<1d5b8ec30912231509y8cc1357x6e4681c7c1349c15@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091224152742.24a66470@arakus>
	<C8D1E231-3A71-4B72-93DA-34B9BD921B4C@phys.washington.edu>
	<20091224164454.72f457d5@arakus>
	<657756DA-2EE3-4049-9BD3-D24346F30AC4@phys.washington.edu>
	<20091224172801.33b9abc5@arakus>
	<70B6D0A8-E8AE-49F4-BCAE-20A2D0283721@phys.washington.edu>
	<3AAADF8F-375F-413D-B670-CD5583C8C5ED@travelinglightfarm.net>
	<5D14EF6B-34F7-411C-AF9D-4F6B3004D7DE@phys.washington.edu>
	<AF6574E8-AEB2-4EDD-9ACB-093F1967D087@travelinglightfarm.net>
	<2E4BEDCE-4494-462F-ADF6-78F11BCE16B4@phys.washington.edu>
	<20091227112353.05a5cf3b@arakus>
	<CB447246-DBA1-47AA-AF3E-123269DDFC35@travelinglightfarm.net>
Message-ID: <20091228045057.3b4a6bfd@arakus>

On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 14:20:18 -0500
Rob Sanders <rarob at travelinglightfarm.net> wrote:

> It is an interesting article, and reminds me of some discussions
> I've had with 'younger'
> programmers at work.  One of my coworkers is an absolutely awesome  
> web developer, using
> the newer frameworks (Groovy on Grails) to develop from scratch a  
> replacement GUI for out
> linux security tools (commercial plug - www.trustedcs.com/ 
> securityblanket) in 8 months, having
> no previous experience with the product.  Seeing what he has been  
> able to do using the right
> tools has been amazing.  He enjoys the whole meta-programming way of  
> doing things.  But when
> I've discussed some of the things I've done (some cell code, device  
> driver work, cross-platform porting,
> C/C++/Fortran, bit level manipulation, etc) he honestly confesses  
> that he is baffled and lost trying to
> do those things.  They just aren't taught much it seems.
> 
> I've also been amused that several of the programming tricks  
> *required* in cell based work were things
> I did 'back in the day' trying to get every cycle I could beg,  
> borrow, or steal out of my old Apple II+.  When
> a no-op costs two clock cycles, you learn to count every one of  
> them.  Anyone else remember the extra
> 16 K of memory (or there abouts) you could get by bank-switching the  
> language card?  Or programming
> overlays?  Manually figuring out how to bit pack you data so you  
> would actually be able to fit everthing
> into your limited memory space?  Again, skills that (outside of the  
> embedded world perhaps) just aren't
> taught much anymore.  <sigh>  I'm not saying that everyone needs to  
> be able to demonstrate mastery
> of these skills, but I am a *firm* believer that the concepts should  
> be taught and coded at least once,
> if only so the developing code can understand what the wiz-bang  
> compiler is doing on their behalf.

I appreciate your experience.  My own is similar in that I also worked
on small systems where memory was extremely tight, next to nonexistent
by today's standards, and coding had to be done extremely well.   Where
you where working on an Apple II+; I couldn't afford one.  So having
had a few programming courses in Fortran, Basic and become familiar
with programming the HP 67 in the early 70's -- I decided to acquire a
Hewlett-Packard 41 which I could afford.  I was looking for a means to
demonstrate that I had solid technical skills, although I had very
little course work in Comp. Sci. and my BA was, of all things, in
Psychology.  The solution was provided by HP itself; it then offered
any interested persons who wrote programs judged as technically useful
the opportunity to be entered into their user's program catalog which
then was published worldwide.

The language then used was a proprietary language which implemented
Reverse Polish Notation as a form of hybrid Assembly language.  The HP
41 had the vast RAM capacity of 6.4KB.

Here are some links just as a matter of sharing a bit of my world back
then.  It may interest you to view something of the code language used
then which was also implemented into the HP 41:

An discussion regards the HP 67 with an example of coding:
http://www.rskey.org/detail.asp?manufacturer=Hewlett-Packard&model=HP-67

An discussion of HP41 with links to technical details:
http://www.hpcc.org/calculators/hp41.html

After that it is pretty straightforward how I could move into PowerPC
assembly language and so on.   

The value of exposure to and experience with technical foundations
cannot be overstated. 

The fact that unless one knows what is entailed to resolve a
difficulty without resort to an application it will be terribly
difficult to understand not only why and how it functions, but more
importantly when that tool cannot be used for a task.  Then such 
understanding can help move one forward towards a task or
strategy which does work.


> Ok, I will now step down from one of my many soapboxes.....
> 
> -Rob  


Hey Rob, don't consider it odd that I'll cheer for you to get back onto
any one of the soapboxes anytime.  



=========

Refranes/Popular sayings:
The Taino say:No hay mal que por bien no venga.
There is no evil out of which good cannot blossom.
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From christopher_blan at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 31 13:27:17 2009
From: christopher_blan at yahoo.com (Chris Blan)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:27:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ydl-gen] Installation Question
Message-ID: <866309.64316.qm@web63802.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

?
I'm trying to install yellow dog linux 6.1 but can't seem to log in once the installation is finished. During the installation I am never asked to setup a user name. Is there a standard user name everyone logs in with the first time? 
?
Thanks in advance,
?
Chris


      
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From dcenteno at ydl.net  Thu Dec 31 14:57:32 2009
From: dcenteno at ydl.net (Derick Centeno)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 00:57:32 -0500
Subject: [ydl-gen] Installation Question
In-Reply-To: <866309.64316.qm@web63802.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
References: <866309.64316.qm@web63802.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20091231005732.6e999e6b@arakus>

On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:27:17 -0800 (PST)
Chris Blan <christopher_blan at yahoo.com> wrote:

> ?
> I'm trying to install yellow dog linux 6.1 but can't seem to log in
> once the installation is finished. During the installation I am never
> asked to setup a user name. Is there a standard user name everyone
> logs in with the first time? Thanks in advance, 
> Chris
> 
> 
>       

No Chris, there isn't.  However it is easy to miss that just before the
installation proceeds to finish one is asked to create a password for
the System Administrator.  I"ve always believed this step to be
misleading, however the point of the question or expectation is that
you or anyone else needs to understand that the System Administrator
(also known as root) can control, add, remove and modify everything you
just installed -- you (as the sole and primary owner of that computer
system may choose one day to execute some -- if not all -- of those
functions or tasks at some future date.  So take the time to choose a
specific password you alone will use to do those special functions --
as root -- sometime in the future.  In other words should you ever use
the term root as a user name, the password to be associated with it
will only be that specific password.

Once that is completed the installation proceeds and then after YDL is
booting up for the first time (without the DVD used to install YDL) --
in other words YDL is running from the hard drive, then you are asked
for a user name and a password to be associated with that user name.
This portion of the installation process is important but different.

As a user you will not be doing programming or other System
Administration or root related tasks -- you will be using YDL to "use"
the applications installed.  You will as a user "use" Open Office or
something else, play Mahjong or Rhythmbox.  As a user therefore you
should create and remember a unique user name to "login" into YDL with
AND create and remember a unique password which is to be used
exclusively with that particular and unique user name.

Once the above has been defined YDL will be easier to work with in the
sense that the operating system will then be clear when you are
specifically working in root or user mode.  Consider it (the whole
procedure) as an oversimplification of who you are but a necessary means
of how YDL (or any Linux) will be able to work for you better.

All the best... and Happy New Year!!

=========

Refranes/Popular sayings:
The Taino say:No hay mal que por bien no venga.
There is no evil out of which good cannot blossom.
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From dcenteno at ydl.net  Thu Dec 31 15:14:26 2009
From: dcenteno at ydl.net (Derick Centeno)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 01:14:26 -0500
Subject: [ydl-gen] Installation Question -- addendum
In-Reply-To: <20091231005732.6e999e6b@arakus>
References: <866309.64316.qm@web63802.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
	<20091231005732.6e999e6b@arakus>
Message-ID: <20091231011426.631ccdbf@arakus>

On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 00:57:32 -0500
Derick Centeno <dcenteno at ydl.net> wrote:

> On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:27:17 -0800 (PST)
> Chris Blan <christopher_blan at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> > ?
> > I'm trying to install yellow dog linux 6.1 but can't seem to log in
> > once the installation is finished. During the installation I am
> > never asked to setup a user name. Is there a standard user name
> > everyone logs in with the first time? Thanks in advance, 
> > Chris ...
> > 

Just to be explicit, any one Linux computer owned by an individual has
one and only one root account.  If however there is a family or group
sharing the computer then there can be multiple user accounts each with
a user password, but still there is only one root.

Should at some time in the future a need arise that one or another user
needs access to some functions of root then at that time you as the
System Administrator (SA) -- read owner -- can decide which root
functions will be allowed to a specific user and which will not.

The whole concept of this is called Linux System Administration as the
concept is a about controlling the use of the computer's resources
(programs, and everything comprising it); in other words the SA decides
what users get to have and work with.

There are many books discussing Linux System Administration.  Pick one
up and learn what you need, reserve details you don't need for later.

Good Luck.

=========

Refranes/Popular sayings:
The Taino say:No hay mal que por bien no venga.
There is no evil out of which good cannot blossom.
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