[ydl-gen] Linux yellow dog manual for dummies

Fri Dec 25 05:46:10 JST 2009

I might also add that, due to recent announcements from IBM, the  
future of the Cell processor is in doubt. In November, IBM announced  
that it was canceling the next iteration of the Cell, the one with 32  
SPE cores. I would therefore hesitate in investing any time in  
learning Cell programming.

As a result of IBM's announcement, there was a flurry of talk on tech- 
savvy sites (such as ars technica) about the end of the Cell and since  
IBM made no attempt to refute these inferences, I can only assume that  
they are phasing out the Cell. Too bad, as it is the only interesting  
computer architecture I have seen in a while. I like your simile  
likening Intel architecture to the rebending of a paper clip, Derick!  
The dominance of computing by one architecture makes the whole  
(hardware) enterprise fairly dull, in my opinion.

Cheers,

Warren Nagourney

On Dec 24, 2009, at 12:27 PM, Derick Centeno wrote:

> On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 10:09:48 +1100
> Robert Spykerman <robert.spykerman at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 2:23 AM, Derick Centeno <dcenteno at ydl.net>
>> wrote: ...snip...
>>> Be sure to use the YDL Board as a resource so that you "meet" other
>>> PS3 users like yourself, as well as others who program using YDL on
>>> various hardware systems.  There's a lot a good people there who
>>> can help you move forward a lot faster than you going it solo.
>>
>> I completely agree. There are not many online forums for YDL - I
>> believe this mailing list and the YDL board
>> http://www.yellowdog-board.com/ are the only two specific ones.
>>
>> I am new to YDL too myself. I suspect not many people use it very  
>> much
>> these days if traffic in these lists or the YDL board is anything to
>> go by, at least relative to the traffic you can see on the ubuntu
>> boards.
>>
>
> You are quite right Robert, the traffic regarding PowerPC programming
> has changed quite a bit over the years.  There had been a great deal  
> of
> traffic here when Apple incorporated the PowerPC in it's computer
> hardware.  When Apple switched to Intel there were many changes in
> the traffic here and then Microsoft, Nintendo and Sony developed game
> systems which incorporated not only the most advanced PowerPC system
> available to date (the Cell) but the most intensively powerful CPU
> available to consumers.  Out of all these companies however only Sony
> allowed an option which allowed users to use and run YDL on their PS3s
> thereby turning what had been merely a game computer into the
> equivalent of a supercomputer available to forward looking consumers.
>
> Of course, not everyone who purchased the PS3 would be interested in
> hi-tech programming on the Cell but that potential was available as
> long as Sony allowed the OtherOS option to exist.  With the OtherOS
> option all members of the family could not only play games but explore
> advanced technical areas ranging from introductory to advanced
> programming concepts of nearly every level of endeavor.  The only
> comparison I can think of is imagining families with the PS3 being
> awarded a free perpetual opportunity to attend the most advanced
> computer labs at MIT or Stanford or Yale for their own personal
> exploration and use. The Cell is that flexible.
>
> However for various reasons Sony closed that potential when the Slim
> version of the PS3 was released while they almost simultaneously
> announced that no further PS3s would be produced with the OtherOS
> option which meant that only the previous generation PS3s with the
> OtherOS option would continue to be sold until the inventory was
> exhausted.  This meant that although there would continue to be  
> persons
> who ran YDL on PS3s that number would be finite and would not include
> anyone who purchased the PS3 Slim forward.
>
> Fixstars which produces YDL, runs on many PowerPC systems however  
> fewer
> of these available systems exist at a price which consumers normally
> purchase between $200-$500.  Fixstar's PowerStation for instance can  
> be
> had for $1000+ and if one wants the Cell included with that there
> exists a PCI card which one can purchase fits into the PowerStation
> beginning at $6,000+.  There will be lovers of hi-tech and
> professionals involved in programming advanced systems who will use  
> YDL,
> YDEL, etc.  which run on such PowerPC technologies which may be or
> become available but this is no longer the "family" or "consumer"
> priced systems which people have considered as reasonably affordable
> over during the years Apple or Sony sold their systems which means as
> well that fewer people will have experience with advanced computers.
>
> Intel technology is popular and common, but it is not based on
> radically new thinking as regards computer architecture.  Intel rather
> is very astute in utilizing old architectures in radically new ways.
> As inventive as such approaches are in my thinking it is akin to
> considering how many ways a paper clip can bend.
>
> In fact, this is exactly why the modern market has developed into the
> weird reality we find ourselves in where Microsoft, Nintendo and Sony
> are vendors who each run the Cell in their own very powerful computing
> game systems but each system is "locked" in the sense that consumers
> cannot use Linux to utilize the flexibility of the Cell on any of
> these systems for themselves or their families.  This is great for
> producing strictly advanced gaming computers however it is terrible  
> for
> those who want to use those same computers as working systems or  
> family
> based learning and research systems which run independently designed
> projects.  In fact, families and individuals who purchase the Xbox,  
> Wii
> and PS3 Slim now have to also purchase other computers as their
> work/research stations at home.  The consumer is paying very much more
> than twice over all these purchases.
>
> A range of technical details exploring various views exists within the
> YDL Board for those who are interested in researching the topic.
>
>> As much as I hate saying this, you may want to check out Ubuntu as an
>> alternative for a beginner for the following reason -  there appear  
>> to
>> be more distro specific 'current' books on the shelves of local
>> bookshops, and at a brief glance, their forums appear to be more
>> active. No doubt some questions and issues you will have will be ps3
>> specific but they have a forum for that too. People say ubuntu gnome
>> or kde (kubuntu) is a big of a memory hog so some say xubuntu (xfce
>> desktop) is possibly the best variant to install on the ps3.
>>
> Ubuntu is a variant of Debian Linux.  Oddly enough however Ubuntu
> decided to cease officially supporting PowerPC systems quite sometime
> ago which means that help is entirely provided as it is by the
> "community" which really means whoever cares to do so which also means
> whenever someone has the opportunity to get to it. This is a really
> terrible development for beginners who need as much help as possible
> from professionals who are at the top of their game. Read more here:
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PowerPC
>
> I have participated on this list long enough to remember a good number
> of people who not only were encouraging others to switch to Ubuntu but
> doing everything possible to "pull" people over there.  When Ubuntu
> made their choice those people who had left here either had to switch
> to Intel Linux or accept Ubuntu's terms.  I'm not aware of those who
> came back to participate on the YDL lists or the YDL Board again.  It
> was really pretty sad all the way around -- all that energy and
> enthusiasm wasted.
>
> Oddly enough however professional support remains with Debian Linux
> itself although they always primarily supported x86 or Intel based
> Linux. See here:  http://www.debian.org/ports/powerpc/index.en.html
>
> The professionals who developed YDL, Terra Soft Solutions (TSS), have
> always been at the top of the PowerPC development environment.  In the
> past, this was nearly the exclusive achievement of TSS; it may not be
> possible for any company to exclusively develop for one computer
> architecture any longer -- we will have to see how Fixstars (who
> inherited YDL from TSS) chooses to move in the current environment  
> which
> exists.
>
> Regardless what they do however the marketplace as far as the normal
> user is concerned is extremely expensive given what has taken place.
>
> In many ways, the deal regarding the old PS3s remains a fast
> disappearing opportunity which would be wise to acquire as quickly as
> possible because once it is gone, that is pretty much it unless  
> another
> company finds a means to re-introduce the Cell or another PowerPC
> system as something other than a game or cellphone computer.
>
> May everyone have a wonderful celebration of these holidays and New
> Year.
>
>
> =========
>
> Refranes/Popular sayings:
> The Taino say:No hay mal que por bien no venga.
> There is no evil out of which good cannot blossom.
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