FireWire hard drives

[Jim Baker]

Hi all,
	I'm probably upstream from Paul (below post) in learning my way around 
the Linux command line. Yes, I built street rods in the '60's, know 
about camshaft lift and duration and can even do some trouble shooting 
with a multimeter. I learned some DOS and a command line stat program 
15 years ago, but with a dozen fragmented hours a week, haven't been 
able to get clued in about how to set up my hard drives.

I've started to get familiar with a few commands (cd, ls), but don't 
know enough to write complete commands with my own system instead of 
generic defaults often provided. I have started to experiment with 
Ubuntu (on G-3 dual boot with OSX) and YDL (on a firewire external hard 
drive).
	So far, I had the Ubuntu running when it first installed, and the OS 
option menu (script) comes up when I first boot the Powerbook, but then 
defaults to OSX regardless of which OS I choose. From archived posts 
I've read, I think it has something to do with where yaboot (Ubunut 
boot loader) is located. I'm thinking I should be able to type a shell 
command at the startup prompt and then specify which OS I want to start 
in another command. If anyone has insights, fire away! I have posted 
requests to the Ubuntu site and had no replies. There seems to be a 
certain minimal knowledge base expected for entry into the OS world. 
How do I get that?
	For Yellow Dog, I'm trying to install it on my external 40 gb Seagate 
HD (in a case that seems good quality). I partitioned the drive in 
halves and am using the second partition for storage. Will this work? I 
don't understand the EXT3 FS, fdisk, mkfs, and sda1 references. I'm 
hitting the same wall with commands to set the drive up, etc.
	I need a north star!
	Thanks!
	Jim B.

On Dec 24, 2006, at 2:40 AM, Derick Centeno wrote:

> On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 00:34:23 -0600
> Paul Higgins <higg0008 at tc.umn.edu> wrote:
>
>> Hi, Derick:
>>
>> Happy holidays to you, too, and everyone on the list.  Speaking of
>> the spirit of the holiday season, my niece is getting my G3 iBook to
>> replace her cheapo eMachines PC that my brother bought her about a
>> year ago, which just blew up. Yes, I'm putting YDL on it.  : )
>>
> Great!
>
>> As for the FireWire drive, I think I figured out what was going on.
>> Take a look at the log again.  At first the system can't figure out
>> whether there's a legit FS, but then it finds it.  The relevant lines
>> are here:
>>
>>> Dec 23 15:34:49 localhost kernel: EXT3 FS on sda1, internal journal
>>> Dec 23 15:34:49 localhost kernel: EXT3-fs: mounted filesystem with
>>> ordered data mode.
>>
>> I'm not sure why the system gets confused at first, but clearly it
>> figures things out, as farther down the log you can see that it lists
>> the not only the correct FS, but also the correct vendor (Maxtor),
>> drive size (250 GB), and interface (ieee1394).
>>
> Paul, I've been creating partitions and formats on all kinds of
> hard-drives destroying, resurrecting and recovering data of all kinds
> of complexity since the 70's.  Please believe me, if your system is
> guessing and running through a laundry list of conflicting messages as
> you've described something is not well.
>
> Computers don't guess anyway near the rational level you expect and
> they certainly don't know enough to "figure" anything out thoroughly.
> The way it (Linux) should work, is one clear output displaying exactly
> what you have once and only once.  No "figuring" or maybe this or that.
>
> In fact, because it behaves as you reported this, in my view, indicates
> more complex problems:
>
> * the hard-drive may not be recording bits of data properly.
> * the Linux OS may not understand what the hard-drive is actually
> reporting to it because the hard-drive hardware settings are not
> standard or the firmware controlling the hard-drive is not talking
> Linux in a standard manner.
>
> I'm over-simplifying the possible issues, but the resolution is the
> same -- force all the data on that drive to be zeroed or destroyed and
> rebuild the data on that drive exclusively from within Linux using
> fdisk and then mkfs.  Before you do that open up that drive and make
> sure to double-check that all the necessary connections between the
> hard-drive and the firewire enclosure you put it in are firm and that
> there are no loose screws or anything else in that box.  Check all
> hardware settings within the firewire enclosure and on the hard-drive
> itself.  Make sure that there are no punctures or scratches that look
> like they don't belong there.  There are many legitimate vendors, but
> many more illegitimate ones unfortunately.
>
> A large drive gotten at a "steal" of a price may be just too good to be
> true.  The advantage to paying attention to all these nitty-gritty
> details is that as you're experience grows you'll be less likely to
> miss visible hints of something awry with the hardware and you'll get
> more skilled in understanding what fdisc and parted and other similar
> tools are telling you about these devices.
>
> Another annoying but still possible scenario is that it is still
> possible to have unwrapped a completely new drive from a vendor who
> received it pristinely wrapped from a manufacturer and it is still a
> lemon, or non-working drive.
>
> A drive which "mostly" works is really of no use to anyone.  I'm
> assuming that you are rewarding, and not punishing, your niece in a
> creative Addams Family manner.  So going the "extra-mile" to insure
> that Linux sees everything on that drive the first time, and every
> subsequent boot -- the same way -- without the funny talk or guesswork,
> is your job.  I can only provide you with the suspicions I've developed
> over the years to wipe out certain problems.
>
> The wonderful and powerful side of Linux is exactly what you are
> mastering.  If this era were the 50's or 60's we'd be discussing
> modifying our cars, instead.  No one would have thought it odd to have
> detailed knowledge of axles, spark plugs, etc.  It was a fellow's job
> to know what was going on with whatever one owned, and to know enough
> how to use or repair it or what needed to get repaired.  Linux, is more
> complex, granted, but the onus remains on the individual.
>
> In my view, what makes Linux as an open source OS, so appealing is
> exactly this -- when all of us are paying attention less and less
> errors are possible and the OS itself gets better and better.  This may
> mean each of us moves up the chain of mastery, a little, but it is
> worth it.  Now if we'd only pay this much attention to our
> environment....
>
>> Anyway, I followed the instructions in that first link exactly, and
>> everything went without a hitch.  I'm sure that mkfs was able to make
>> a legit ext3 FS.
>
> Suggestion:  Keep a notebook and record there exactly each step you do,
> why and how.  Always cross-check against it, until you can do them
> while you dream.  Get away from being "sure" about anything -- KNOW.
>
>> It must have worked as I've been able to back up
>> everything on the old iBook so far.  So the drive is basically
>> working, just not as smoothly as I'd like. Maybe the kernel just
>> doesn't like the cheesy Chinese-made FireWire enclosure I got from my
>> local "whitebox" store...who knows?
>>
> As far as firewire enclosures go, everything is pretty standard, unless
> you didn't connect something firmly enough which means that the
> connection is intermittent and therefore would itself appear to the
> computer as "sometimes on" and "sometimes off".  All connections need
> to be firm and secure.  Every nut and screw in it's proper place.
>
> You're "the man", so don't be hesitant in insuring that every 
> connection
> is where it's supposed to be and function works as it should the first
> time and every time.  The enclosure may be cheap; your effort however,
> should be as "top notch" and focused as you can make it.
>
> If after all that, the drive is not reliable -- it just may be that
> drive.  One test which will isolate the difficulty further is to apply
> the exact same above steps to a different drive placed into the same
> "cheesy" enclosure, and see if Linux reports the drive's existence in
> the same confusing way.  If Linux reports the drive's existence without
> any of the "funny stuff" or "guesses"; the problem is unique to that
> drive.
>
> I guess by now you can figure out that I've several drives and
> enclosures lying about my home so arranging this kind of test is not an
> issue.  As for you however, use an expendable drive.  There is nothing
> like being absolutely thorough.
>
>> The thing that's confusing about that article I linked is that it
>> says to make a new entry in both /mnt and /etc/fstab, while the YDL
>> directions say only to create a new directory in /mnt and they never
>> mention /etc/fstab.  I wish I knew enough Unix to understand why both
>> things can work OK.
>>
> These are not two different things.  fstab is a file within the etc
> directory which can be modified so that it sees the new directory you
> create within the mnt directory.
>
> The difference is that the modification necessary within YDL 4.0 fstab
> file is not necessary within YDL 4.1.  Why?  Improvements to the Linux
> kernel are such that the Linux OS can make more assessments regarding a
> working drive on it's own.  So the mastery of details necessary within
> YDL 4.0 are less important, but remain an important foundation.  You
> still need to be able to know the fundamentals discussed here to
> decipher problems, but as you move up the versions of YDL the work you
> need to do is a little less.  Just a wee bit.
>
>> It would be nice if Linux could get plug-n-play working a bit more
>> reliably when it comes to FireWire and Flash drives.  I find it
>> pretty ridiculous that I have to mount a drive from a terminal, as
>> nice as it is to have that particular skill.  (To be fair, however,
>> YDL does a better job with Flash drives then does my Debian x86
>> machine at work).  What would be ideal is for FireWire and Flash
>> drives to automount once they have been properly formatted.  I don't
>> mind using a CLI for formatting/mkfs at all, however.
>>
> Remember that Linux is open source.  That doesn't mean convenience for
> each individual initially but rather the potential for each individual
> to have or create for oneself the tool one needs.  This is very
> different according to what our needs become over time.  In this kind
> of system someone creates a tool -- such as parted, fdisc, mediacheck
> and others initially useful to themselves, it is posted as a GPL tool.
> Then I or you or someone else uses it for our own reasons etc.  We each
> however need to come to improve our understanding of those tools and
> their proper use.
>
> As our individual sophistication grows, our projects and interests, as
> well as what Linux can accomplish also grows.  However, like all such
> human endeavors successful and complete coverage will be spotty.  After
> all, broadband connections where throughput greater than 7MB/s is not
> quite universal yet, is it?  Some towns don't have even enough
> electrical power to run a radio station!
>
> Just like most things, open source, means what you want it to mean
> according to the value you place upon it, given the skills you have
> which allow you to use it better.
>
>> Now I just need to see if copying over my KMail directory works
>> properly when going from YDL 4.0.1 to 4.1.  And that reminds me of
>> another pet peeve: there doesn't seem to be any easy way to copy
>> stuff from /home to the FireWire drive using the GUI.  I have to use
>> the CLI for that.  It's not that difficult, but it is inconvenient.
>>
>> -PRH
>
> It is very difficult to design an open source gui which addresses
> everyone's needs which is why the really powerful opportunity of open
> source in my view is the potential to contribute to these various
> desktop projects by letting them know what's important to you.
> However, the problem in this discussion is understanding history.
>
> The CLI is very much older and much more flexible than any gui because
> of the necessity to execute commands quickly and explicitly while
> determining what processes where in execution by a system. In
> fact, it can be demonstrated by anyone with sufficient expertise that
> more can be accomplished from within Apple's Darwin using the terminal
> app than can be accomplished using OS X!
>
> The difference can be imagined this way:
>
> Anyone can open one or more terminals within Unix/Linux without a gui
> and still get essential work done.
>
> This cannot be done in either Windows or the Mac OS, as each of those
> operating systems require that the entire Windows or Mac gui
> portion of the operating system exist along with those terminals.
> Solaris, probably could do this as Solaris is essentially Unix in the
> first place.
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