[ydl-gen] Question on YDL.net

[Derick Centeno]

Ok, Ted!  Thanks for your clarification.  Let's see...

> It is always a pleasure to get your attention. But its a little 
> frustrating to have the question not be answered.

I can only improve, Ted, as I come to understand your ideas.  A bit at 
a time.  Somedays and sometimes I am better than others.  Sometimes I 
get it, sometimes I don't.
Nothing personal.  Just human nature to not have complete insight on a 
topic, happens to everyone.  This is where patience is a virtue, comes 
in.  No point in getting frustrated when our limitations come into 
play.  Likewise, we'll see a little later, there's no point not 
overcoming Nature's tendency which we all have to wait for the apple or 
fruit to fall from a tree before we can eat.  Waiting for Nature or 
someone else to do something when you are quite capable to learn to 
achieve it yourself -- not a plan.  Not a plan, if you choose 
participating in the drive of Living Life.

This is a Philosophical approach expressing it this way, obviously.  
But it appears that the force of Evolution, the same force Darwin 
describes, moves this way also.  It may be basic, inherently unfair, 
but it is quite clear that we did not descend from the life form which 
waited to have it's food or anything else come to itself.  We ourselves 
might live for "take out", but our ancestors who got us here knew no 
such luxury.

However, having expressed that does not mean that we are all condemned 
to acquire Doctorates in advanced areas of Software Engineering.  All 
the various Linux distributions have improved a very great deal 
regarding how they provide support and assistance to various users of 
all kinds.  Sure there are gaps!  Cyberspace has the analogs of 
Physical Space, valleys, gullies, trenches and even canyons.  And 
likewise a human is well prepared if one does not hold to the attitude 
of waiting for development to "just happen" so that it somehow 
miraculously addresses ones views so one can eventually easily navigate 
the Linux terrain.  In the meantime, the less brave, skilled or sturdy 
can do exactly what you do... raise discussions and questions regarding 
what you are looking for and helping the rest of us -- get a clue -- or 
a better understanding of what matters to you.  That's exactly what 
this forum or email system TSS has set-up is for.  A conduit to listen 
to persons like you and I.  Can there be improvements, sure.

I'm pretty sure that all the Linux distributions want to improve what 
they do, although there is some disagreement regarding how to do that 
improvement and just what the "improvement" really means in real world 
terms.  Ubuntu Linux appears to me to practically offer to put one to 
bed at night with warm cocoa followed by a story complete with hugs.  
However, although I am teasing them, I do respect their effort and 
drive and they have, despite my ribbing, my sincere good-will.  Besides 
we all need some warm cocoa and a story and a hug at any age -- 
sometimes.  The offer that it's there, is nice.

Ubuntu Linux, however follows Debian and Debian's most recent published 
standard release as I correctly presented, is behind YDL's standard 
release.

> Suppose I really do want KDE. Or even suppose that whatever I want, i 
> want to be current. Will paying for YDL.net help with that?

I think I answered that question.  I don't think it's TSS's job to do 
the work KDE is supposed to do or have completed within a certain 
period.
YDL.net as I understand the service provides the most packages 
available which function together ahead of any other standard package.  
I can ask the question of them, but you also can ask TSS directly as 
well.  Tell you what, I'll present your question as you asked (I won't 
reinterpret it for you, meaning I won't rewrite or explain what I think 
you mean) it -- to TSS. You do likewise from your end.  You post what 
you find out here on this thread.  I'll post what I find out on this 
thread as well.  Deal? or No Deal?

Forgive my twisted humor, I just wanted to work in that phrase.  I'm 
really amazed and happy for Howie Mandel in his successful new program, 
I remember first seeing him in "Little Monsters" years ago, wondering 
-- who is this guy and why do I think I know him?

> Well, my point was that Fedora goes way out of its way to support even 
> their non-preferred desktop.

I find this observation a little strange.  Really?  Doesn't every Linux 
distribution support every desktop version they provide as part of 
their standard release?  You mean that there are Linux distributions 
which strip out the help systems which developers such as KDE, Gnome, 
Fluxbox, Enlightenment and all the others -- put in?  Wow, I didn't 
know that -- that is down right mean.  Well, I can verify that in every 
incarnation of YDL each desktop environment has had a completely 
available and useable help system with complete access to all areas of 
that desktop environment complete with ways to reach each development 
group for each desktop environment regarding any questions.  I know 
because I've availed myself of using every help feature possible in the 
various desktop systems provided standard within YDL.

Or you are speaking of support other than the help systems developed by 
the desktop environment designers?  In other words, support of KDE from 
someone other than KDE?  Whose job would that be?  You don't mean that, 
do you?  In other words, you would expect someone else to handle 
support or questions regarding KDE better than KDE itself?
I don't think you mean that, do you?

> Er, I'm a dummy, but not that big a dummy. I've actually spent a lot - 
> a whole lot - of energy on this matter. I may as well tell you why I 
> prefer KDE.
>
> - you can put the menubar where it belongs, at the top of the screen!

You can do that within ANY desktop environment, Ted.  Really, you can.  
It's a matter of accessing the help system of that particular desktop 
environment to learn how.  That's why the developers of each and every 
desktop environment put in their own help system.

>
> - I like Konqueror over Firefox. I like the notion of a web browser 
> being a file browser. I like the synergy between Apple and khtml.

Konqueror is available as are all the other KDE apps, from within Gnome.
You are not aware perhaps that KDE and Gnome share fundamental 
utilities and share underlying technologies regarding their respective 
desktop environments?

>
> - I like the way the components integrate, for instance its a snap for 
> the browser to be integrated within the news aggregator, for the 
> advanced text editor to contribute to the word processor, for the 
> raster editor to appear in the spreadsheet. The integration of 
> applications is just cool (or at least cooler than in Gnome). One 
> preference pane for every toolbar of every app? Cool.
>
> - The KDE design philosophy seems levelheaded. The Gnome guys really, 
> really made a mistake, a huge one architecturally with all that CORBA 
> business, even though it has been discarded now. Now this I know 
> something about. I know this, I do.
>
> - I'm disgusted by office suites that emulate Microsoft. If I wanted 
> bad user interface, I'd go where bad is done right, to Office. I come 
> from a FrameMaker background and am convinced that any useful word 
> processor will use the frame metaphor. Its a political thing gutwise, 
> but a practical one too regarding document structure. If you want good 
> software, you have to support it. Kword. Try it. Everyone reading 
> this, try it. I'd be willing to bet this exchange ends up with more 
> converts to KDE than the other way.
>
> - In theory, KDE is along the lines of what you praise YDL as in your 
> post to Gavin.

Sorry, Ted, I need to correct you here.  I didn't praise YDL 
exclusively.  I praised ALL the Linux projects and distributions asking 
that each endeavor be recognized for it's efforts and that each receive 
the respect which each has earned, including YDL.  A fine point, but an 
important one.

> It isn't a collection of stuff from all over the place, Mozilla, 
> OO.org, OMG plus RedHat's business strategy and some multimedia guys 
> in another logical corner of the world. KDE is an architecture first, 
> then an integrated set of components, then applications that when 
> released are guaranteed to work together. Isn't this what you touted? 
> Its just philosophically more attractive.

Ted!  Your a Philosopher!  Linux sometimes can be unkind to 
philosophers.  But wait, there are almost as many distributions now as 
there are people!  Just kidding...
C'mon, relax....

>> You do know about tar, downloading and recompiling all sorts of stuff 
>> by now so why stick with the old stuff, if your skills allow you to 
>> be and remain current.
>
> But I don't. I don't have those skills. I may have to develop them if 
> the YDL community forces me. I'm lazy. I'm looking for what the other 
> guys have, an easier life. Even quirky PCBSD has a KDE update process.

Ted, Ted.  It isn't the YDL community or any one else forcing you to do 
anything.  As I alluded to earlier, it is the Force or Drive of Living 
Life itself.
Call it Evolution.  Call it whatever you want... it is relentless and 
everywhere.  As long as you are a living being, you learn or you 
perish.  Humanity, almost by definition is about using what it has 
learned to survive, build and live to see tomorrow.  This drive has 
been going on since our ancestors figured out how to use fire to cook 
meat and chip rock to make an ax.  The development drive such as it is 
within Linux is a mirror image of all other human activity.

You are choosing to not learn, not adapt, not use the tools which are 
there because they aren't refined enough for you?  I can't believe you 
are serious.

> If I use Linux at all, I'll use KDE (and Emacs and functional 
> programming). Look, we all make our choices, we all have values that 
> we want to support. If I go with OS at all, I'll go this way.
>
> My question stands. Is there a way for me to remain current with KDE 
> on YDL by paying (or any other means)? Is YDL.net of any use in this 
> regard?
>
> Thanks for the attention.
>
> Best, Ted

Ted, it is possible to have different views and different choices.  
Which is why in Linux there's a nearly infinite plethora of options.  
Just because the options, help or support, may not be accessible in the 
manner you imagine does not mean that in fact it is not there.  Each 
desktop environment is designed by it's separate project and the best 
people who know and provide the help system for that environment are 
also from that project.  KDE provides for KDE and Gnome provides for 
Gnome and so on.  That someone is stripping out or could be stripping 
out the help systems is absolutely terrible.  Or maybe I misunderstood 
you completely.  Perhaps the help or support systems are within the 
desktop environments but you didn't take the time to utilize them, or 
learn how to do so?  Could it be, you may be imagining functionality 
regarding KDE, which does not in fact, exist?  Possible?  Perhaps the 
functionality of Gnome is closer to KDE than what you know, and 
certainly in YDL 4.1 they certainly most definitely are a lot closer.  
You can check what KDE and Gnome say regarding their collaboration with 
one another at their respective sites.

You really must master the help systems provided within the various 
desktop environments, because every Linux distribution has the same 
challenge.  They didn't develop the desktop environment and help system 
-- that particular project, however, did.

I fell into that predicament more than once myself.  Happens to 
everyone in Linux, at least once.  As I said earlier, we are all 
dummies regarding something.

I believe that your question, as mentioned earlier should be put to TSS 
directly.  Write them a letter or call, whichever makes best sense to 
you.  I believe that they are responsible to provide you with the best 
KDE package they can acquire at the time the release a particular 
version of YDL; it is up to KDE itself to hold up their end.  These are 
distinctions I'm not sure we see eye to eye on, but that's ok.  We are 
just participants engaged in a wider question which does deserve 
consideration.  And because of that consideration I'll attempt to pass 
on your question and present whatever I can discover, if anything, on 
this thread.

Thanks for forcing my brain cells to fire up...

Sincerely, Derick.